Does your dog or cat have conscious thought?

I think the best uniquely human things we've developed are the arts, philosophy and ethics.

You forgot exceptionally large burritos. I've never seen a cat make a burrito rivaling a small human child.

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Fact: animals lead intense emotional lives. They strategise. They learn. The smarter ones use tools. They have a sense of humour. They develop different ways of doing things

I agree with this...

A little story:

My dad has a house which he goes to on weekends, he keeps long lasting foods in a jar in a stone cellar, such as vegetables cans, bottles of vinegar and oil and so on.

A few years ago, we made an astonishing discovery, a mouse(s) (we knew the animal because of the droppings) had drunk the whole content of a cooking oil plastic bottle, nothing special about that, but, they made a hole at the top of the bottle to lick the oil, and once the level has dropped, they filled the bottle with little stones and debris to raise the oil level to the hole, we were amazed, for a mouse to actualy work out such a system to get the food is incredible as this action needs thinking and planning. Some animals are much more "intelligent" than they're credited for, we could not believe it, but we had the proof in front of us.
 
Some animals are much more "intelligent" than they're credited for, we could not believe it, but we had the proof in front of us.

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As people understand animals better, the trend in almost all modern research suggests that animal intelligence is highly underestimated. However, Typo is right, ultimately it is a philosophical debate and no argument can be conclusive, either way.

It is true that humans are way ahead on the evolutionary scale compared to all other living forms, but it is important to note that all the definitions and parameters of evolution are also made by humans, as Polly alluded.

It is already established that animals feel pain, fear, and have the capacity to love, but issues like emotional intelligence, a sense of morality, a sense of right and wrong is the crux of the debate and where it rests really.
Do animals have a sense of justice? Some animal researchers will even give you positive scientific evidence of that.

How whales hunt collaboratively, how elephants societies grieve or how crows scavenge, if studied in some depth will blow peoples minds.

All of this seems well past the 'conscious thought' level to me.


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Indeed this is a debate that we will not solve and has not been solved by minds better than ours. I will say that this thread although not music related has indeed proved that some of the members on this forum can and have debated without resorting to be personal attacks or name calling. I am currently watching a series of DVD's entitled The Animal Planet. Some real surprises there. For your mature, human behavior, I salute you all. Peace.
 
I think animals are smarter than we know. How does my cat know I am leaving for vacation and won't be back for a week? He does, and gets all weird on me. He knows when my wife or myself is sick and stands vigil. He has a definite personality and moods. Just like humans.
 
My sis had a parrot like that. She had to use a door not in view of the cage to carry out the luggage. They tend to associate, luggage, words etc with actions. Her parrot knew she wouldn't be there and that I would for a week. Parrots tend to have one friend, caretaker, and everyone else is suspicious. Learning, emotions, moods, reactions...all of these things are obvious. Trained seals blow horns but right behind comes the fish to reinforce the behaviour.
 
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Here's a neat little elephant story that my son and I experienced some 10 years ago at the Washington Zoo.

We are watching a keeper escort a huge female into an indoor enclosure. He guides her in and loosely shackles her to a peg in the ground. He turns and gets some feed from a huge stockpile, about 20 yards away, and places it in front of the elephant. She munches away hungrily as the keeper attends to his other tasks.

Very soon she finishes the feed placed in front of her and is watching the keeper going about his business. About 10 minutes go by and the keeper finally exits the enclosure.

As soon as he shuts the door behind him, she gingerly works the peg out of the ground with her trunk, and hurriedly shuffles across to the big feed pile. She grabs a trunkful - about as much as the keeper had put in front of her and quickly shuffles back to her original position.
Amazingly, she shoves the peg back into its hole and starts eating again. A few minutes later the keeper walks back into the enclosure, and its like nothing happened while he was gone.

I could have sworn she faked a really angelic, innocent look.......

.... cool!


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Amazingly, she shoves the peg back into its hole and starts eating again. A few minutes later the keeper walks back into the enclosure, and its like nothing happened while he was gone.

I could have sworn she faked a really angelic, innocent look.......

.... cool!


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I'd say deception is certainly a consious thought.

Anyhow, the big issue here is judging other creatures by our own perception of humans offering the gold standard. Whilst we've certainly evolved to be the dominant life form on this planet, that doesn't mean that creatures operating at a different level are automatically excluded from higher brain function ability. Maybe it's about priorities too, and carving out a good life in the environment you're limited to by physical restrictions. After all, if you were a krill, you'd still spend most of your time avoiding whales.

I used to keep tropical marine creatures. I even had a tidal tank. I remember an experience with an octopus. I placed a shrimp into a water filled screw top jar, & secured the lid. I then dropped the jar into the tank. The octopus unscrewed the lid & snagged the shrimp in under a minute. That octopus had never encountered a screw top jar before, so instinct? I don't think so. It did, however, spend a few seconds grappling with the jar before it got the lid off, so maybe it went through a number of pre programmed stress tests to search for weaknesses before putting it's efforts into rotating the lid. Either way, impressive.
 
I tell my cats to stay, and they stay! See!

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Man. You can't do anything in moderation huh? :) I can't talk... I have 3... in far less space than you probably have.

And I think this was a Godfather-style message for me to keep the noise down.
 

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I am on a ten acre hobby farm, with a huge old bank barn. They stay outside, and in the barn for the most part. I love my cats. :)
My cats get real mice. That way they don't get in my bikes, and truck, or run around in my attic all winter. The mice that is.
 
I'd say deception is certainly a consious thought.

Anyhow, the big issue here is judging other creatures by our own perception of humans offering the gold standard. Whilst we've certainly evolved to be the dominant life form on this planet, that doesn't mean that creatures operating at a different level are automatically excluded from higher brain function ability. Maybe it's about priorities too, and carving out a good life in the environment you're limited to by physical restrictions. After all, if you were a krill, you'd still spend most of your time avoiding whales.

I used to keep tropical marine creatures. I even had a tidal tank. I remember an experience with an octopus. I placed a shrimp into a water filled screw top jar, & secured the lid. I then dropped the jar into the tank. The octopus unscrewed the lid & snagged the shrimp in under a minute. That octopus had never encountered a screw top jar before, so instinct? I don't think so. It did, however, spend a few seconds grappling with the jar before it got the lid off, so maybe it went through a number of pre programmed stress tests to search for weaknesses before putting it's efforts into rotating the lid. Either way, impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocWF6d0nelY

Been there...done that.
 
I'm coming kinda late to this, cuz I haven't logged in all week, but I had to make a point that no one seems to have brought up yet. There is NOTHING in all creation that is either/or. So there can be no yes or no answer to this question. There has to be a whole range of possibilities between "do they" and "don't they". In other words, at one end are things like amoebas, and at the other are things like us. In between is everything else, and everything else will have a degree of self-awareness depending on where it is on the scale.

Btw, Taoists equate the loss of Tao (getting kicked out of the Garden, the "Fall from Grace" in Christian mythology) to the acquiring of self-awareness.

There. I have answered the question. We can go back to drums now. ;)
 
Going all tree-hugger on me, I see... an amusing twist of my words, but clearly not what I meant.

Think about it. If animals were self-aware, they would NOT be satisfied living the simple lives they live. They would do what humans did: adapt, evolve, and conquer! Create things! Build things! Dogs wouldn't be sleeping all day, or playing with chew toys, or licking themselves. Who can say what they would be doing?

I don't see how this follows, why self awareness and the ability to create agriculture and progress that can extend from that should be so linearly related...

If my dogs do not have it, but develop self awareness tomorrow, with no other mental or physical changes, I don't see how their capabilities could possibly change to any extraordinary degree.

Humans have dogs as pets, not the other way around. It is that way for a reason. Humans are self-aware, and dogs are not.

Or we're smarter and capable of more complex and controlling behaviour, regardless of self awareness.

I mean, if dogs are not self aware, but magically became so overnight, albeit remaining the same in all other ways, I don't see how there is any possible way that their level of intelligence and their physical abilities would ever enable them to "conquer! Create things! Build things! ".

I do know my Alsation is very bright and absolutely not happy to be just lying around and chewing things. She needs to explore and to see new things and to hunt. That's goal orientated behaviour, just on a different scale from (not all, either...) humans.
 
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