What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

Exactly Stan.

But time and time again, you will still have a defensive and belligerent hobby player try to stand a guy like you down as if his pov is even remotely equal to yours. I've also been seeing this in the tiny amount of time that I've been involved. My theory is there are a lot of guys who chose another direction in their lives always believing they could be a guy like you the moment they decided. Well I don't think it works that way. There are guys who do it for fun and guys who do it for real. A guy like you is the real thing. In your world there was never thought of an alternative. But I seriously believe there are people who come to the Internet believing they can become serious musicians anytime they please, but chose not to because of their self described real lives, while somehow justifying that as reasons for why they don't do certain things. Then amazingly, they demand you play along with that skewered reasoning.

Look, God bless everybody who loves to play. But these fantasy camp one on ones got old a long time ago.

Does that mean a less serious player can't have a serious pov?

Of course not.

But when you get in front of thousands of people worldwide preaching voodoo and fairy dust, it really isn't proper to make snitty remarks about something you're not even prepared to discuss and not think you will not be downsized accordingly. Then when that happens don't brood and stamp around because you didn't get your way. You would never have such an opportunity in real life, so why would you expect a break here?

Actually I find that the majority of people act like this in real life too. You've probably been very lucky to have been surrounded by realistic and critical people in your life. Myself, and many other spoiled kids were brought up being told that they can achieve anything they believe. Unfortunately many go through their whole lives thinking this is true and never learning for themselves that their exceedingly supportive group of people around them growing up has turned them into all believing and no doing.

Having moved around a lot myself and meeting many different people and musicians, I've found that the majority of musicians may not say the things we're both finding silly here in this thread, but you can tell by the way they act and approach their craft, and life, that they already think that way. The story is always in the actions.

You're probably a little lucky to have grown up in a proper critical environment and thus you've surrounded yourself with those types of people and have been cruising ever since. If you figured it all out on your own, then even more power to you.
 
Exactly Stan.

But time and time again, you will still have a defensive and belligerent hobby player try to stand a guy like you down as if his pov is even remotely equal to yours. I've also been seeing this in the tiny amount of time that I've been involved. My theory is there are a lot of guys who chose another direction in their lives always believing they could be a guy like you the moment they decided. Well I don't think it works that way. There are guys who do it for fun and guys who do it for real. A guy like you is the real thing. In your world there was never thought of an alternative. But I seriously believe there are people who come to the Internet believing they can become serious musicians anytime they please, but chose not to because of their self described real lives, while somehow justifying that as reasons for why they don't do certain things. Then amazingly, they demand you play along with that skewered reasoning.

Look, God bless everybody who loves to play. But these fantasy camp one on ones got old a long time ago.

Does that mean a less serious player can't have a serious pov?

Of course not.

But when you get in front of thousands of people worldwide preaching voodoo and fairy dust, it really isn't proper to make snitty remarks about something you're not even prepared to discuss and not think you will not be downsized accordingly. Then when that happens don't brood and stamp around because you didn't get your way. You would never have such an opportunity in real life, so why would you expect a break here?

I really think you're missing the point, you say guys like me are not serious musicians. Who gives you the right to determine that? The same people who gave you an award for "the worlds fastest drummer"? Just because I didn't move to L.A. or make a world tour, I'm every bit as serious about playing the drums as anyone on here. Yes, I'm self taught and yes I should had learned more, but don't belittle me or any other drummer here who does not make a living at it as less of a musician than you. I realized a long time ago that only a handful of drummers actually live the dream and of those half are untrained. I've seen tons of drummers who have won awards and could play circles around most of us who are still playing in smokey bars for peanuts. That makes no difference to me, I don't judge a drummer on how much stardom they recieve, rather the passion they have and love for the instrument they possess.
 
Threads like this suggest to me that you don't have to talk about politics to talk about politics.

I find little joy in either the Never Question Your Betters Party or the Damn It I'll Do What I Wanna Do Party. Somewhere in the vast gulf between those two poles lies sanity. If anyone happens to find that happy place by all means let me know because I think it would be a good place to be.

Until then, I'll stick with the It's a Funny Old World Party and try to get my right foot working better at low volume without aggravating my knee problems.
 
To further the point I'm trying to make please check out this guy. His name is Louis Cato and I've mentioned him before. Louis is in possession of one of the best natural funk grooves in the music business today. He is a good friend and is currently laying down tracks for my new show. Here he is with Marcus Miller playing Freddie Hubbard's Mr. Clean.

Actually, Mr. Clean is the perfect example of a song you need to know how to read music for, if you haven't heard the recording. There is a drum tacet towards then end of the song and if you miss it, people tend to get a little peeved. That song occasionally makes it into the setlist when we play with the horn section.

Here is a questions to non-readers: what do you do if there ISN'T a recording of the song you are supposed to play? How about if there is a recording but you show up to a rehearsal and you don't have access to a recording when the band leader hands you a piece of music?
 
Here is a questions to non-readers: what do you do if there ISN'T a recording of the song you are supposed to play? How about if there is a recording but you show up to a rehearsal and you don't have access to a recording when the band leader hands you a piece of music?

Personally, it's never happened. In cover bands, we chose our set lists and spent time learning them. I've always had time to go and 'parrott'.

If no recording existed then it was because I was playing in original bands, so theoretically, no charts existed either.......nor did I want them to. I wanted to create the parts.

However, that only answers you from my experience. As a general question, you highlight a good point.
 
Just because I didn't move to L.A. or make a world tour, I'm every bit as serious about playing the drums as anyone on here. Yes, I'm self taught and yes I should had learned more, but don't belittle me or any other drummer here who does not make a living at it as less of a musician than you. I realized a long time ago that only a handful of drummers actually live the dream and of those half are untrained. I've seen tons of drummers who have won awards and could play circles around most of us who are still playing in smokey bars for peanuts. That makes no difference to me, I don't judge a drummer on how much stardom they recieve, rather the passion they have and love for the instrument they possess.

I agree with you. There's no question that Muddy Waters, who didn't know anything about theory or reading, was dead serious about his music. One of my favorite drummers, Al Foster, cannot read music. Roy Haynes never learned the rudiments, not one.

When I started you had to read music, so I taught myself to read music because I had no choice. These days the whole nightclub/show apparatus is gone so there's not as much pressure put on a young player to learn to read. These days people can make the choice to further their musical education or not. Such a choice didn't exist for guys my age when we started out.

Try to understand that in my opinion Muddy Waters or Al Foster or Roy Haynes are not models of how to get your foot in the door of the music business. I always think of the young players here who intend to go into music as a career, and putting forward the concept that one doesn't need to learn to read music because it isn't necessary has to be looked upon as being really lousy advice. Telling anyone not to learn anything because it isn't necessary, that doesn't sit well with me.
 
Hey wy yung. That was a great post you just deleted. You should have kept it up. It beautifully capsulized the feelings of many here.

BTW, Buddy did say that about classical musicians not being creative, when I find it I will post it here.
 
BR -I've thought about It. It's interesting, but simple. To have everything written for you ... It's not really creating. That's why I think symphony drummers are so limited. They 're limited to exactly what was played a hundred years before them by a thousand other drummers. And, you know, I think the original recording of Ravel's Bolero, probably whoever played percussion on that, will never have It played better than that. So, what do they do? They're simply following what was laid down in front and they play the same thing. So, there's no great challenge In being a classical drummer.
 
To be fair....

MD - I believe there's a music school in the East where the professors prefer that their students do not know how to read music. Their belief is that students can learn more by playing by ear. What do you think about that?

BR - That's right. But, I think it's very important that you read. I think you should read in order to know what the chart is all about. But, I don't think any arranger should ever write a drum part for a drummer because if a drummer can't create his own Interpretation of the chart and he plays everything that's written, he becomes mechanical; he has no freedom.
 
I don't think any arranger should ever write a drum part for a drummer because if a drummer can't create his own Interpretation of the chart and he plays everything that's written, he becomes mechanical; he has no freedom.

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Here's the deal from my experience as a professional for what it is worth.......

I just came in with a sizeable check in my hand from finishing a concert with a larger ensemble holding down one of the percussion chairs for the outdoor concert in front of a large crowd. Did I have lots of fun and creative freedom within the music? oh yes indeed!...... Did I have to read difficult as stink multiple parts/instruments in odd meters with tempos changes and multiple important cues from the conductor well both reading and watching him carefully? yes indeed......

Would I have got the initial call for my services for the 3 paid rehearsels and tonights show if I couldn't read a note of music or knew how to follow a chart etc... NO ..NO and NO.....

This is the REAL world for working pros in many situations folks who freelance amongst other things to pay the bills. To discredit or "talk down" the importance of reading and the interpretive experience based skills that comes with that skill is a sad joke. The real sad part of this joke being on those sitting at home not working for believing the same old BS story as old as time about I can do it based on my truly amazing natural talent of picking things out of thin air the first time through a complicated tune or arrangement. Only one Buddy Rich folks, as for the rest of we deal with things as they are in the real world of pro playing situations.

Forget it kids don't buy this crock of s.... and those trying to convince you of this so called "truth". What works for them {if indeed true, being the internet} does NOT apply to all in the real world from my many years of experience on the subject as well as my experience with many others I also know in this business.

Thanks for reading.....
 
....

Steely Dan, one of the most creative and original bands of their time didn't allow a even quarter note of original creativity or 'interpretation of the charts' by any of the musicians. Drummers were'nt allowed to even open their hi- hats a touch, where it wasn't specified.

PS- some of the greatest musicians played on their records. Lets add that up.


PPS- ( Jay.. looking good! )
 
Stickit said:
I don't think any arranger should ever write a drum part for a drummer because if a drummer can't create his own Interpretation of the chart and he plays everything that's written, he becomes mechanical; he has no freedom.
???!!!
I believe you couldn't be more wrong, because not matter how a drummer can get to his part - whether by a written drumpart, an idea from his head, a groove in a recording of the tune in question, an improvised one - he either is able to make it sound good, or he sounds stiff.
Plus, a musician will never have 100% freedom, he must take decisions all the time, which take away the freedom at this point with every note, whether improvised, learned by memory or read from a sheet music.
 
That's why I think symphony drummers are so limited. They 're limited to exactly what was played a hundred years before them by a thousand other drummers.

Nooo, I'm limited - good classical drummers are fab. The bigger the band, the less freedom you have. If people are going off and doing their own thing unscripted in an orchestra the music would get messy, but when everyone plays their part just right the combination of many instruments is magnificent.

I love jamming but I also have zero issues with playing rote parts if it means the music sounds and feels great. You still have to execute with the right feel in the moment. We are not machines - the nuances will always be a tiny bit different every time.
 
What I really would like to have at this point of this discussion is the list of those drummers on the DW's list who can't read a single note. And a list of those who CAN read and are not being at all creative. I'm sure both lists will be quite small but maybe I _could_ be surprised. But I have a feeling we are just arguing with generalizations and a view point that is tainted by personal experiences on a local level.
 
Notation, what is it and why does it exist?

In the Middle ages Christian monks began devising a method of recording musical notes. This was done in an effort to share and preserve music. Until then music had been successively lost over tine. Notation is a tool, a device.

In ancient times the Greeks and Romans used a form of notation and some survives. But the details have been lost.

So what we have today is a musical tool/device available to musicians. In the west notation is used extensively. Recording sessionsn gigs, rehearsals...in all these places notation can be found.

Why is this so? Simply put, because it works and saves time and makes life easier for those involved.

I and others who can read often have trouble with those who have ideas about reading that are at odds with our own experience. We know the benefits. And the word "know" here is absolutely crucial.

On the other side are musicians who cannot read. These people have no experience of the benefits of reading. That needs repeating. These people have no experience of the benefits of reading.

So where does the arrogance of an opinion based in ignorance derive? I do not know. How can someone comment on a subject of which they have no experience?

And yet on forums it happens all the time.
 
BR -I've thought about It. It's interesting, but simple. To have everything written for you ... It's not really creating. That's why I think symphony drummers are so limited. They 're limited to exactly what was played a hundred years before them by a thousand other drummers. And, you know, I think the original recording of Ravel's Bolero, probably whoever played percussion on that, will never have It played better than that. So, what do they do? They're simply following what was laid down in front and they play the same thing. So, there's no great challenge In being a classical drummer.

Sometimes I read things around here that make me do a double-take and wonder whether the person is being serious or facetious. I'm going to assume you are being serious and that - based on this post - you have very little experience interpreting charts in symphonic or other environments. That's alright, it's not for everyone. But I think you may have the wrong idea. I'm not going to get into questions about who is more "serious", because I don't think they're answerable, ultimately. But I can say something about my experience with chart reading and interpretation.

On a general level, there is plenty of room for interpretation in classical music and musical theatre. In many cases the composers are dead, in fact, so it's left to conductors and musicians to try to milk the music out of what's on the page. There are dozens of recordings of Bolero and no two sound precisely the same. There are dozens of versions of Beethoven's symphonies, but there are incredible variations in tempo, in rhythmic interpretation, dynamics, articulations, tuning, etc. In a musical theatre context, this happens even more than in symphonies and the composers are often still alive and sometimes even involved with the production! Listen to a Broadway version of a show and compare it to a West End version of a show and you'll often here a marked difference. Same charts.

Looking at percussionists in particular: no two drummers/timpanists/snare drummers sound exactly alike. Some of it is in their technique and hands, but a greater amount of it is in their musical conception. For example, Vic Firth held the Boston Symphony timpani gig for so long not because he could regurgitate timpani parts better than anyone else, but because he could interpret them in a unique and highly musical way. Snare drum is no different. Two players can play the same part and make it sound completely different based on how they interpret what's in front of them. I've played etudes along with a teacher of mine, and despite us both playing all the notes on the page "right" it doesn't sound the same. He's better at the orchestral stuff. That's his bag. In musical theatre it's no different. Having heard others play the same shows I've played, I can tell you that none of us interpret the charts in exactly the same way.

Here are some of the creative questions a reading percussionist might ask:

General Interpretation: Should I play all of this? What's the orchestra playing/what's going on on stage, and does my part work with that? Parts are omitted for all sorts of reasons.

Sound: should I use a dark sounding deep wood drum, or a bright shallow metal one? Low tuning, or high tuning? Tight snares, or loose? Which sticks should I use? What cymbals should I use - big ones, little ones, dark ones, bright ones? Tambourine with a head and brass jingles, or no head and tin jingles? (I'm not kidding) Small brass mallets on the glock, or hard plastic? Sticks or yarn mallets for that cymbal roll?

Rhythm and other inkish things: An orchestral snare drummer might ask: should I interpret rolls as closed or open? Shall I play drags or ruffs for grace notes? Shall I interpret a dotted-eighth/sixteenth rhythm strictly or closer to triplets, or as a double-dotted-eighth/32nd (some of this would be up to the conductor, too) Do I finish a roll with a button or just come off it cleanly? Shall I use a straight alternate sticking or something else? What about dynamics? The distance between p and f can be very big or very small. Do you play your crescendos as a steady climb up, or do you stay low and burst out of nowhere at the end? In musical theatre, we ask all these questions and then some: i.e. shall I add hihat to that section, or play it on the ride cymbal? Shall I use the toms for those shots, or the snare? Etc., etc., etc....

A timpanist would ask similar questions, though the issue of closed rolls wouldn't come up. But, they might decide to play rolls as a rhythmic subdivision (i.e, 16ths) rather than with no determinate subdivision. That's a huge thing and can change the entire feeling of a piece. They'd also decide which mallets to use and where to strike the drums for the right timbre. A good timpanist can give the effect of short and long (staccato/legato) notes without dampening the drums, simply by the way they strike them, and that can make all the difference. Of course, then there is the question of dampening - do you cut off all notes at their written length? Do you allow the timps to ring together? Do you shorten notes to less than their written length for rhythmic effect?

All these things sound simple on their own, but the combination of these creative decisions are what shape the sound of the piece. And they're what separate one percussionist from another and keep some working while others don't.
 
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