VST Drumming (Share opinions, howtos, knowledge and discussions)

AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken said:
I've been thinking of VST recently b/c I have grown to despise Roland and want to work around using my overpriced module.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there for MIDI drumming. So I'm not really clear what the best investments would be to get into this. Right now I have everything plugged into my just-barely-functional SoundBlaster MIDI port (edrums -> Roland TD-20 -> SoundBlaster MIDI board). 'Monitored' triggering is understandably delayed, about 0.5-1 second. Gets worse if I try to record while playing.

Can anybody give an idea of what basic equipment would be necessary to turn an average PC into a 'drum module' capable of live monitoring with no delay? For example I know there are devices like the Alesis Trigger I/O that take edrums as inputs and convert that to MIDI or USB, but I don't know what people think of it. There's the Megadrum module you can make yourself but that requires some serious EE knowledge.

And there's something I don't understand about both: will I still need to buy a high-end MIDI-capable soundcard to use either? And is there any solution out there that handles stuff like hi-hat variation or position sensing?
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hey all!

i do agree with all the people talking about mac is the ultimate, seamless and a much more reliable solution regarding vst definately needs a stable computer system with a stable os. using a pc running on a win xp service pack 2 with all the critical&vital updates installed has not let me down so far. i am pretty sure it might have some day though. :)

anyway i would love to have a mac but it sure is ridiculously expensive in turkey considering the fact that i bought all the parts and put together my pc for almost $1000 without tax.

for the quote AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken, i could recommend an external audio interface (most m-audio models are worth their prices) with usb connection. a firewire connection might not work as fast as it works with the mac on a pc so that's why i went for a usb device considering the fact that i could take my audio interface with me let's say to my bass player's house to record his parts and not all the pc systems come with a firewire port. usb is a lot more common.

a basic equipment configuration you need might be as well close to my gear if you are a pc user interested in midi drumming/recording/editing and that is something like below: (an average pc unfortunately won't do the trick. i am saying this because i struggled to much with my old system)

Home Recording Equipment and Software

PC
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz CPU,
GIGABYTE Bearlake S3 Quad Core Compatible 1333 MHz FSB Main Board,
Seagate 7200 Rpm 250 GB SATA HDD,
Kingston 2 GB 800Mhz RAM,
LG Dual Layer 20X DVD Writer,
Audio Interfaces and Equipment
M-Audio Fast Track Pro USB 4x4 24bit/96KHz Audio Interface,
M-Audio Oxygen 8 v2 MIDI Controller Keyboard,
YAMAHA DT20 Triggers,
Vintage SONY Receiver and 3-way Speakers to use as reference monitors,
Wharfedale DD-1 Headphones,
Various Cabling,
Software
Steinberg Cubase SX,
BFD
 
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spleen said:
Anyway, thanks again for the feedback--please let us know if you decide to post some of your tracks, as I'd like to check them out.

spleen
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here's a very sloppy and quick realtime recording demo for you to listen to spleen. no editing whatsoever. i truly apologize i have not laid down a decent groove but it might give you an idea of using midi recording capabilities with a pc using bfd in realtime.

hope this helps. i am surely going to post better examples soon.

cheers!

bfd test played realtime with yamaha dtx
 
tolgapala said:
here's a very sloppy and quick realtime recording demo for you to listen to spleen. no editing whatsoever. i truly apologize i have not laid down a decent groove but it might give you an idea of using midi recording capabilities with a pc using bfd in realtime.

hope this helps. i am surely going to post better examples soon.

cheers!

bfd test played realtime with yamaha dtx
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks for that tolgapala! I'm at work now so I'll check it with some good cans when I get home.

spleen
 
tolgapala said:
i could recommend an external audio interface (most m-audio models are worth their prices) with usb connection. a firewire connection might not work as fast as it works with the mac on a pc so that's why i went for a usb device considering the fact that i could take my audio interface with me let's say to my bass player's house to record his parts and not all the pc systems come with a firewire port. usb is a lot more common.

a basic equipment configuration you need might be as well close to my gear if you are a pc user interested in midi drumming/recording/editing and that is something like below: (an average pc unfortunately won't do the trick. i am saying this because i struggled to much with my old system)

Home Recording Equipment and Software

PC
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz CPU,
GIGABYTE Bearlake S3 Quad Core Compatible 1333 MHz FSB Main Board,
Seagate 7200 Rpm 250 GB SATA HDD,
Kingston 2 GB 800Mhz RAM,
LG Dual Layer 20X DVD Writer,
Audio Interfaces and Equipment
M-Audio Fast Track Pro USB 4x4 24bit/96KHz Audio Interface,
M-Audio Oxygen 8 v2 MIDI Controller Keyboard,
YAMAHA DT20 Triggers,
Vintage SONY Receiver and 3-way Speakers to use as reference monitors,
Wharfedale DD-1 Headphones,
Various Cabling,
Software
Steinberg Cubase SX,
BFD
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I've never owned a Mac for two reasons - their irritating, smug image campaign and the fact that I'm a programmer, which means I'm pretty much a slave to the PC :p

But I'm actually considering getting a Mac just for musical needs. Not sure if building a PC or Mac would be cheaper. Can anybody outline what a bare-bones Mac would run?

One thing I'm still unclear on is the drum-to-PC interface. From your listing above it looks like you mainly use it for your keyboard which has a MIDI out, so you go keyboard MIDI -> M-Audio -> computer. There's another link in the chain for drums, something that will convert the trigger signals to MIDI (or whatever format the PC needs). Anybody have recommendations for that? Like I said before I've been looking at Megadrum, the drum-to-MIDI thing you can build yourself, but my EE experience isn't too great. Some people have halfheartedly recommended the Alesis Trigger I/O, although that apparently has some issues with Roland drums.

And I've heard from a lot of MIDI drummers that there's no way to handle hi-hat positioning at this time, or position sensing of any type. Given that position sensing on my Roland module isn't that great I'm not worried too much about that, but the ability to open/close hats is kind of a big issue.

I listened to the Toontracks samples and I'm actually excited about e-drumming again, they sound so much better than Roland's samples. Work makes me have to practice on my e-kit more often than my acoustics so it would be great to get this up and running.
 
AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken said:
Thanks for the info. I've never owned a Mac for two reasons - their irritating, smug image campaign and the fact that I'm a programmer, which means I'm pretty much a slave to the PC :p

But I'm actually considering getting a Mac just for musical needs. Not sure if building a PC or Mac would be cheaper. Can anybody outline what a bare-bones Mac would run?

One thing I'm still unclear on is the drum-to-PC interface. From your listing above it looks like you mainly use it for your keyboard which has a MIDI out, so you go keyboard MIDI -> M-Audio -> computer. There's another link in the chain for drums, something that will convert the trigger signals to MIDI (or whatever format the PC needs). Anybody have recommendations for that? Like I said before I've been looking at Megadrum, the drum-to-MIDI thing you can build yourself, but my EE experience isn't too great. Some people have halfheartedly recommended the Alesis Trigger I/O, although that apparently has some issues with Roland drums.

And I've heard from a lot of MIDI drummers that there's no way to handle hi-hat positioning at this time, or position sensing of any type. Given that position sensing on my Roland module isn't that great I'm not worried too much about that, but the ability to open/close hats is kind of a big issue.

I listened to the Toontracks samples and I'm actually excited about e-drumming again, they sound so much better than Roland's samples. Work makes me have to practice on my e-kit more often than my acoustics so it would be great to get this up and running.
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hey there! thanks for the reply.

i am using a yamaha dtx and it has a midi out so i connect my yamaha drum --> m-audio fast track --> which is connected to the pc so that way i am using fast track pro's midi in in my host software. (which is cubase in my case) midi signals from the drum set comes to the audio interface and then to my computer and there is nothing else in between. the midi controller keyboard(oxygen) i am using is connected directly through a usb port just like my external sound interface(or sound card in other words) is. hope this clears the grey area.

i don't quite know which equipment the midi drummers you've mentioned are using but what they have said is not true about hi-hat positioning and sensing. nearly all the trigger modules come with hi-hat positioning and offset adjustments so the same goes for the known drums software that could be used on pc. such as bfd has another control in the drum map section that is all about hi-hat pedal position. it also has a learn function so you don't quite have to adjust it manually. you would just need to tweak a little to the correct setting that would please you. even the midi devices like drumkat can support the function so that you can actually hear the rattling sound or the chick sound depending on your controllers ability. it is either handled by the stroke velocity or the hi-hat controller pedal's position. same goes for the other samples as well. just like a snaredrum sound output could have snare, drag, flam and rim even if you are not using a multiple-zone trigger pad to trigger each sample separately. that is all handled by the midi (or your stroke velocity for that matter) velocity.
 
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Some upgrades to my equipment are:

PreSonus BlueTube - Tube Amp
CME Matrix Earphone Amp with 2 in 2 outs and 4 controllable earphone outputs
And a very nice condenser microphone. nothing fancy but works perfectly fine.

i finally upgraded to ezdrummer also and the samples and dynamics are killer i have to say. i finally realized i was in agony using bfd folks! i didn't know it back then. now i know how huge a mistake i had made trying to finetune bfd's stupid errors and put up with it for such a long time.

there's this competition if you are interested in getting a copy of SD 2.0 (Superior Drummer from Toontack) for free in their web site. If i don't make it and get one of the three free copies i think my wife and i are getting a serious fight. She would probably shove the dvds down my throat when she realizes i spent approx. £180 on a piece of software. anyway if you are interested just check it out.

cheers to all!
 
Hello tolgapala!

Thanks for the update--curious to hear the "blue tube" so let me know if you ever get a chance to post a recording.

Hey, have you had a chance to try out a Mandala drum? http://synesthesiacorp.com/

The specs sound pretty incredible--128 velocity levels and 128 strike positions from center to edge. It comes with a sound library that has over 3000 sampled strikes on a Black Beauty snare. Too cool!

spleen
 
Anyone tryed the new Yamaha Dtxtreme III allready?

DTXT3Front.jpg


DTXT3Rear.jpg


Live theres no need for a (unstable) laptop anymore (though its still possible with the 2 usb connections and midi connections) with its internal (expandable) ram memory, sequencer, sampler etc. Also samples of real drums (not that electronical sounding drums of other companies) recorded by great drummers such as Akira Jimbo, Dave Weckl, Zacky, Russ Miller, J.R. Robinson and Tommy Aldrigde.

http://www.dtxperience.com/dtxtremeIII.php

Tone Generator Tone Generator AWM2
Polyphony 64 notes
Wave 205MB (when converted to 16-bit linear format)

Voice Preset 1,115 drum voices, 211 melody voices (GM)

Drum Kit Presets 50 kits, User 50 kits (in the Flash ROM), External 1584 kits (or 99 x 16, in the external USB storage device)
Effects Reverb 9 types, Chorus 19 types, Variation 51 types, Insertion 51 types, Master Effect 9 types, Master EQ 5 bands

Trigger Trigger Setup Preset: 7, User: 5, Pad songs play, chace, cutoff. 4 songs (max.) can be played simultaneously.

Sequencer
Note Capacity Approx. 152,000 notes
Note Resolution 480 ppq (parts per quarter note)
Song Recording type Real time
Song tracks 2 tracks
Songs Demo 3 songs
Practice songs 44 songs
Pad song 40 songs
User 50 songs
Sequence Format DTXTREME III Original Format, SMF format 0
Click Tempo 30 – 300 , Tap tempo
Beat 1/4 – 16/4, 1/8 – 16/8, 1/16 – 16/16
Timing Accent Quarter note, Eighth note, Sixteenth note, Triplet

Click Voices Preset 8
Training Functions Measure break, Groove check, Rhythm gate
Sampling Samples 1,016 (for the User Voices)
Sampling Sources Audio input signals via AUX IN/SAMPLING IN, Audio output signals via OUTPUT (Resample)
Sample Data Bits 16bit
Sampling Frequency 44.1kHz, 22.05 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 5.5125 kHz (stereo/mono)
Sampling Memory Optionally installed, expandable to 512 MB (256 MB DIMM x 2 slots)
* DIMMs are not installed to the instrument when shipped from the factory.

Sample Length Mono: 32MB, Stereo: 64MB
Sampling Time 44.1kHz: 6 min. 20 sec. 22.05kHz: 12 min. 40 sec. 11.025kHz: 25 min. 20 sec. 5.5125kHz: 55 min. 40 sec. *Mono/Stereo

Sample Format DTXTREME III Original format, WAV, AIFF
Controllers ■ Sliders MASTER, PHONES, CLICK, ACCOMP., KICK, SNARE, TOM, CYMBAL, HI-HAT, MISC.
Displays 240 x 64 dot graphic backlit LCD, 7-segment LED (3-digit)

Connectors MIDI IN/OUT
USB TO DEVICE/TO HOST
OUTPUT L/MONO, R (standard phone jack)
DIGITAL OUT (EIAJ CP1201, IEC60958, S/P DIF)
INDIVIDUAL OUTPUT 1 – 6 (standard phone jack)
Trigger Input jacks 1 – 9, 12 – 15 (Standard stereo phone jack, L: Trigger Signal, R: Rim Switch)
Trigger Input jacks 10 and 11 (Standard stereo phone jack, L: Trigger Signal, R: Trigger Signal)
AUX IN/SAMPLING IN (Standard stereo phone jack)
PHONES (Standard stereo phone jack)
HI-HAT CONTROL (Standard stereo phone jack)
DC IN 16V

Power Consumption 18W
Dimensions, Weight 334(W) x 285(D) x 96(H) mm, 3.6kg

Accessories AC Power Adaptor (Yamaha PA-300B, or an equivalent), Module stand, Module stand fastening screws (4; included)
Click to expand...

Yamaha-DTXtremeIII-Special.jpg


This state of the piece blows modules like a TD-20 away hands down.
 
spleen said:
Hello tolgapala!

Thanks for the update--curious to hear the "blue tube" so let me know if you ever get a chance to post a recording.

Hey, have you had a chance to try out a Mandala drum? http://synesthesiacorp.com/

The specs sound pretty incredible--128 velocity levels and 128 strike positions from center to edge. It comes with a sound library that has over 3000 sampled strikes on a Black Beauty snare. Too cool!

spleen
Click to expand...

hey spleen!

i actually do have a recording but it is right now on a very scale model state of the actual song and probably not a very good performance demonstration of the tube. i am posting it anyway. :) i never tried the Mandala Drum but it looks interesting as far as i can see.

my friend (who used to be the lead singer and guitar player of my band) and i are taking things kinda slow to make it as good as we can and the fact that we can find so little time of our own to make music is another reason. this recording is the export of the cubase project as it was couple of weeks ago. working on it as we speak.

it is basically a very crude mixdown. the channels are all to be dumped one by one and replaced with the final performances as the project grows eventually. so nevermind the guitar tone, the vocals etc. they are all temporary and recorded in 3 am in the morning roughly for laying down a basic picture of the traffic. i played the drums live (using my dtx connected to ezdrummer software via midi) to see if what i think fits the overall spirit of the song. no editing whatsoever and this is take two for the drums. :)

i did play the song from beginning to end without any pause and restart, rather than laying down the midi notes from the screen cause it feels more like the real deal and i never liked the editing process. it's the main thing with home studio recording for a musician, either you learn to play flawlessly or you become a very swift cubase editor. :) you know if i blunder i start over again. time is mine since it is my little recording studio i am not pressurized by a tight production schedule or a producer pushing me and reminding me of the budget&deadlines.

you will probably notice the bass stops playing just around the end of the solo because i haven't finished writing it. i was laying down the bass line. i just applied some effects for the vocals to make them bearable at this stage. and some overdrive to the guitar.

i had to give a link for the song because of the constraints for the file size in the forum.

i said too much already. :) hope you enjoy it. i sincerely do. i will post the final version as soon as we two part time musicians (with different professions for daily bread) find sometime of our own and get up our lazy butts and get together to finish the song. :)

cheers!

Dinle - by:Uygar&Tolga

p.s.here you can find my first ever try to record drums at home
thread : my "not so special" kits
 
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hey all!

there's something i would like to share with all you guys. actually it's a difficulty that i have come across and asked a pro about it if you already have not figured out.

so if any of you would like to record midi drums i would strongly recommend to split channels after recording all the midi notes with the desired map and lay down kick drum, snare, hi-hat, crashes and other cymbals and toms to different channels for easy eq ing and editing and exporting if you are working on a project that needs to be done in different locations and share it with other band members.

you can cut and paste different elements to a different channel but remember to paste what you have cut from the source channel to the origin (paste at origin function) otherwise the host would paste it at the locator's position and you would need to second edit it by hand.

cheers.
 
hey all!

her are two examples of a bo diddley shuffle variant. one is from the ezdrummer nashville set with no room selected on the eq settings. the other one is exported by hand to separate channels (kick, snare and hi-hat) and were applied a multiband compressor and some eqs.

the shuffle was played directly by myself through my dtx and repeated. no edits were applied. 90 bpm. here is how the sound changes especially on the snare (you would naturally notice the overtone or the ring to it) when you export it to a separate channel and use compression on the audio. i am not even close to a pro on the stuff, i merely try to figure out the basics on the subject. namely the compression technique that i had the chance to ask about, to a pro.
 

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Hey Tolga!

I've been meaning to get back to you for a while now--hope you are well!

Nice playing, and wow, what a difference when you split to separate channels! It's very exciting to realize all the possibilities available when doing this kind of stuff. Thanks for sharing, sounds great.

I also had a chance to check out "Dinle" which is very cool as well. You're definitely much farther along with this than I am so I'll probably have many questions for you once I find the time to do more of my own recording.

spleen
 
spleen said:
Hey Tolga!

I've been meaning to get back to you for a while now--hope you are well!

Nice playing, and wow, what a difference when you split to separate channels! It's very exciting to realize all the possibilities available when doing this kind of stuff. Thanks for sharing, sounds great.

I also had a chance to check out "Dinle" which is very cool as well. You're definitely much farther along with this than I am so I'll probably have many questions for you once I find the time to do more of my own recording.

spleen
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hey!

it is very nice to hear from you as well. i am doing ok, spending my quality time reading on subjects regarding sound engineering. i am at the very beginning actually, but when you start digging in, you find yourself within endless possibilities and information to digest.

it is a total different subject with regard to playing an instrument but i thought "hey i am a drummer, why not become a drummer with some sound engineering knowledge under his belt." :)

i am glad you liked "dinle". as far as being farther along with this stuff, i unfortunately disagree. i am merely trying to figure out things. pros on this subject can determine whether the room they mix and master in, absorbs certain frequencies, how they should place certain instruments in the frequency window to leave let's say vocals a broader gap in order not to boost gain and be able to record every intonation, every detail in lower gains.

i think, the user mediocrefunkybeat is into that kind of stuff also. but you're more than welcome to ask any questions that i might hopefully be able to answer.

take care!
 
Hi, just thought I'd post here.. I'll probably ask random questions later anyway!
I'm new to these E-drum/VST shenanigans but I have just had a studio built in my back garden, so I figured I would invest in a nice e-drumkit. Not really sure which to pick yet, it's either a TD20, DTX III or a high end Hart or R.E.T kit.
I've had a go on my friends TD20 for a while hooked up to DFH and I must admit the sample quality really surprised me, it was extremely good, nothing "fake" sounding about it in the least.

Already got a macbook setup with BFD/Pro tools along with a Alesis I/O so I just need the E-kit now :)
 
toddy said:
Hi, just thought I'd post here.. I'll probably ask random questions later anyway!
I'm new to these E-drum/VST shenanigans but I have just had a studio built in my back garden, so I figured I would invest in a nice e-drumkit. Not really sure which to pick yet, it's either a TD20, DTX III or a high end Hart or R.E.T kit.
I've had a go on my friends TD20 for a while hooked up to DFH and I must admit the sample quality really surprised me, it was extremely good, nothing "fake" sounding about it in the least.

Already got a macbook setup with BFD/Pro tools along with a Alesis I/O so I just need the E-kit now :)
Click to expand...

hi toddy!

well it is nice to see people of the same interest grow day by day.

i am a yamaha dtx user for a couple of years now and pretty much figured out every gimmick about it. roland dt20 is a masterpiece but as far as the price issue goes it is a killer. same goes almost for the yamaha dtextreme IVs. pricy kits.

there are a number of manufacturers out there but pintech could be a solid option or the hart dynamics. yamaha produces vinyl pads so a mesh pad could be a lot convenient to play with.

you are absolutely right about the sound quality. most of the recording is done by midi technology nowadays even world recognized bands record drum parts electronically. i has numerous advantages for the sake of the production efforts.

as far as the reality of the samples go, it is almost crazy right now. i have not been able to lay hands on superior 2.0 from toontrack but as far i have heard it has 14 gigs worth of only sampled hats. so i guess they have covered pretty much every dynamic involved. i am using dfh also and loving it a lot better then bfd.
 
Hey Team,

Great thread. I'm real new to the digital stuff but I've been making some good headway in a short time.

I run a Macbook Pro with Logic and a Motu Ultralite. I'm pretty happy with Logic now that I am unraveling stuff like the ESX24 and the Mac takes all the punishment I can give the thing. I would think twice before buying an Ultralite though. They have heaps of ins and outs but in hindsight I would have gone for something with better/more mic pre-amps.

My latest toy is a DTXplorer. This kit was the right price and I'm glad I bought it but I've already started to Mod the thing. So far I've connected it to the ESX sampler and multi-tracked the kit in Logic. I'm using a bunch of sampled kit sounds a mate built and it's sounding HUGE. I use Midipipe to change the trigger sounds.

My band jams out in my room and we all forget we are playing with headphones on. It sounds like an AC/DC concert.

So far I've got a bunch of Sennhieser mics and one SE2200A. Love the Sennies and the SE has great tone - though it picks up EVERY bit of back ground noise.

For guitars U mic up my Engl and we use guitar rig.

Also running Yamaha HS80 speakers. Again I would probably buy a different set should I get to turn back time but they do give a very honest tone.

Short term plans are building a vocal booth so I can get my scream on, upgrade the snare and brain on the DTX and add a few more cymbals (already running three) and record killer album in my bedroom.

I do have one question though. I'm not getting a smooth hi hat closing with Logic. The pad triggers an open tone, then the pedal triggers an open tone when pushed. Sort of two tones bleeding into each other.

Suggestions?

img0050gjq.jpg


img0048u.jpg
 
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Probably just a case of re-assigning the MIDI events in Logic to apply to different samples. It's very difficult unless you're using a very advanced sample library to get it 'right'. I love what you can do with a relatively cheap electric kit these days. Logic is also my DAW of choice and it's just fantastic.

SE Mics are fantastic. I used a couple of them when I was at college and was very impressed. The model we had wasn't quite as nice as the Neumann I used to record a Tibetan Singing Bowl with (which was just stunning, lovely smooth sound). I'm also quite fond of Yamaha monitors in general. Sure, they're harsh, but if you can mix on those, you can mix on almost anything - everything comes out on them!
 
Cheers for that Funkybeat.

I've been bugging everyone I can think of about the midi hat issue and I reckon i'll solve it one way or the other. It's so unsatisfying to not get any clutch action. I think the "links" between the samples is my issue though but I can't find any decent info on midi and hat clutching. Each time I think I've got a fix I learn something new and unexpected so at least I'm not wasting time.

Still you are right about what you can do with a cheap kit. I spent a few hours tweaking today and it's sounding very organic and drum like. Very pleasing as I hate over processed drums. At some point I'm going to take a bunch of drums into a big old concrete building and make some real booming samples.

Anyone in Melbourne or Australia wanna recommend a good snare pad? One that's very snare like?
 
The only way I can think of doing it the way you want would be to have two MIDI plates that each send out a signal, in an analogue of the way an acoustic hi hat works. That or a more complex sample library.
 
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