The Grand Master Buddy Rich

Yes Buddy was A absolutley Fantastic drummer, Yes he was extremley influential...but i think popularity shaddows the efforts of other true greats such as Krupa and Tony Williams.
 
Thomas said:
Yes Buddy was A absolutley Fantastic drummer, Yes he was extremley influential...but i think popularity shaddows the efforts of other true greats such as Krupa and Tony Williams.

Hey Thomas. Good point. But did you know what Gene Krupa said about Buddy Rich? He said that "Buddy Rich is the Greatest Drummer to have ever drawn breath!" Quite a compliment from one of the true greats, huh? Cya! Peace!
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

finnhiggins said:
I'm not buying that.

He's an astounding player and his chops are phenomenal. But musical vocabulary? He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta in that respect, to name but one. He never had much in the way of rock chops, indeed he expressed great loathing for the style on many occasions. I've never seen footage of him playing any convincing latin material either. And likewise I don't recall seeing any of Elvin or Tony's innovations making their way into his jazz time playing.

He was an enormous big band drummer, there's few who could touch him on that ground. And his soloing chops were jaw dropping too. But if you're going to put him forward as the kind of stylistic versility and musical vocabulary then we're going to have to disagree. His range was really rather limited compared to many drummers today, he just had astounding control inside that range.

Huh? There would be no Vinnie Colaiuta if there was no Buddy Rich. Come to think of it,
the list here would be infinite, of drummers that would not be, had it not been for Buddy
Rich. My guess is you haven't seen many videos/clips of him. There was NO style of drums he couldn't play. Have you ever seen what his left hand did while he played? You're kidding, right? Few who could touch him? What few? Can I make a suggestion? There are a number or really good videos of him available. You should pick one up and take a look at it. Fact is, he was the greatest drummer to have ever drawn breath. Not my quote. Gene Krupas'.
Play on!
 
mikejames said:
I'm (obviously, I suppose) a huge fan of Buddy's music. Buddy's playing,along with his "the show must go on" attitude, will be discussed forever, which is the proof of what he was. Of course, our appreciation of music is subjective, so you may disregard guys like me as being biased. But here are some undeniable facts...

What (besides double-bass drumming) are the most popular tech subjects discussed here on Drummerworld? ...the Moeller and Gladstone techniques that Buddy and others had mastered. Derrick Pope's "stick trick" and "one-handed roll", as performed by Buddy, are still hot subjects. It's ironic that Buddy was the "textbook example" of the best way to play most techniques, but that he did it NATURALLY, with very little formal study.

Buddy once did a performance at Jazz at the Philharmonic, where he came out front and played a solo on ONLY two bass drums, flooring the audience. (Buddy didn't normally use two bass drums... He just sat down and did it, amazing everyone... Then he never did it again.)

And...
Buddy's influence was a major force in the drum industry itself. Who was responsible for the first (reinforced) "dot" heads? Buddy Rich asked Remo Belli about making his bass drum head last a little longer, and they were invented. Who motivated the design of the (Rogers) "Dynasonic" snare drum? Buddy Rich asked Rogers to design a snare drum that could respond at all volume levels with clarity, and without "choking", and after they did, he proved it's attributes during his playing with Harry James and later, with his own band.

Buddy was the first drummer to play drums "upside down", when he did a gag performance on the pilot for the "I've got a secret" TV show, which then led to many rock drummers doing it in their live shows.

Buddy drove Slingerland hard when he was en endorser in the late 1960s and 1970s, proving his seriousness by playing other drums, when Slingerland made drums he wasn't happy with. Simply naming a drum as a "Buddy Rich model" wasn't enough to buy Buddy's loyalty. On the other hand, when they, in his own words, "finally made him a snare drum that was playable", he was happy to play it and speak about it. He used very simple drums and hardware, showing drum companies (and drummers) that "complex" and "heavy-duty" didn't necessarily mean "better". His thoughts on cymbals influenced Zildjian. He didn't talk a great deal about these things, but simply led by example. When Slingerland let him down, in the mid 1970s, he switched to Ludwig, and stayed with them for years.

In his final years, when he could've played anything he wanted, he returned to Slingerland "Radio King" drums, made in the late 1930s. That wasn't because he was "nostalgic"... It was because he loved the sound of the drums. After his death, drummers and manufacturers alike began to wise up, and you're now seeing "Vintage" drums in their own (high-priced) market, as well as modern manufacturers trying to emulate them. Just recently, DW has introduced a vintage series, and who was the "showroom" kit modeled after? Buddy Rich. Buddy's sidemen included generations of players and writers who then went on to become the jazz masters of our time.

We all benefit from Buddy's influence, (and, in all fairness, other great drummers too) whether we realize it or not. He certainly did a lot more than just "play fast".

For those of you who would like to hear some great live concert clips of Buddy and his bands, I'm hosting a page of previously-unheard and unpublished clips on my site, at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html (free to download for personal listening, with no "catch") Enjoy!

Ahh...Written by a true professional. Absolutely true on all points. You must have read my mind, Mike! Well Done! Write On & Play On!
 
Re: great buddy rich video

Jusstickinaround said:
I actually have that dvd with the whole Martin and Lewis tv show, bought it at Wal-mart for $5. An interesting thing happens during the solo, right after his flurry on the cymbals his beater comes off his pedal and he does the rest of the solo without a kick. You can slow it down on the dvd and see it clearly come off, he was and is the greatest drummer that ever held a pair of sticks.

Just wanted to repeat that last statement: He was and is the greatest drummer that ever held a pair of sticks. The truth always bears repeating! Play On!
 
Buddy had a natural talent that was extraordinary in no uncertain terms. I can't imagine that there is any beat, any independant technical thing that he could not do if he wished. He was a drummer of just that magnitude.

It seems far beyond any individual on this forum to put Buddy into a paradigm, and declare what Buddy could and could not do. I find that logic rediculous. It's interpolation and opinion only.

EDIT: Broad stratification of Buddy isn't a good idea either. I agree with the following comments. The words "best" or "can't" probably should not be used.
 
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Look Michel, I'm as big a Buddy Rich fan as there is. I don't just watch the same 5 videos again and again. I listen a lot, and I've studied his whole career, not just the West Side Story/appearences on Tonight Show part. My dad and grandfather even did some ocassional playing with him. For the record I think he is probably the greatest drummer of all time, and certainly the greatest technician...I don't care what the Vinnie/Virgil fanatics think.

I even scoff at that crowd who say there is no such thing as a best drummer, and that you can't measure stuff like that, because that's just plain BS. Best is always qualifiable, and those who say it isn't, just want to keep the lines blurred so they can feel better about never having any personal goals in their musical lives.

But I've gotta comment on this latest Buddy fan base, because I think you guys are startin' to get out of control. Look at this man. Four posts in a row, and what have you really said?

You start off by repeating the Krupa quote that's been said a thousand times, and then you can't believe that people who favor others can possibly exist, implying that finnhiggins has probably never seen a Rich video, when that's one of the main topics discussed on this forum. Then you spend the next 2 posts doing no more than reinforcing the parroting of ardent disciples.

Geez, I never thought I would say this, but you guys are getting more and more like Travis Barker fanboys every day. I think your throat cramming tactics like these last 4 spams, only qualify my point and dishonor the legacy of Buddy Rich. And you know something? It's really starting to bug me.

Let me tell you something about finnhiggins. He and I have butted heads over a lot of issues, and I thought that He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta comment was pretty out there too. But instead of checking out finn's views, or even looking at the discussions on this thread, you essentially assumed he was uneducated about Rich in any way, which is not even close to be being true.

In fact one of the reasons finn's Rich comments irk me as they do, is because he does know what he is talking about. You coming in here and lecturing us...a person who has yet to offer a intellectual qualified comment, doesn't really help the cause at all.

I also most strongly resent the newest Rich fanboy tactic, which is to use the Buddy Rich website forum to artificially distort what is believed to be Rich naivete on Drummerworld. I invite you to visit the Rich forum now, because his Drummerworld rant thread is still there, along with my rebuttal.

I even went to the Rich forum to explain that I thought there was a 4 year period in Rich's career where he was the best who ever lived without doubt. The reaction of the Rich fan base was to express disbelief that I would only give Rich 4 years of unquestioned immortality, in light of the fact that those 4 years were also the peak years of Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. And this came only weeks after I defended Rich about his speed...a most hallowed issue Rich issue indeed, and one I was qualified to discuss.

Here's the issue at hand.

The Rich fan base need to do some soul searching, because the way you are getting your message out lacks... to say the least. And I have to think that Cathy Rich is not going to like it, if the original accurate viewpoint about her father becomes controlled by instransigent fanatics, who will do anything to sell their point.

There are already some drummer fan bases that suffer this affliction. I would not want this to occur to the legacy of the greatest drummer of us all.

Come on, let his music speak for itself. It already does for me. History will prove your point if you allow things to run their proper course.
 
About Buddy being the best drum technician to ever live... that's probably true. The fact that his solos did not follow a certain and restrict time did not matter at all. His solos worked as a free and spontaneous exercise of genius creativity. Which other drummer could simply seat and play like that? Out of nowhere and withouth much thinking or "special preparation"? Not many, that's for certain.

When i watch/listen to some of Buddy's solos on the hi-hat, for example, i can clearly sense his geniality in every step of the composition of such solo. The snare dynamics have an order, beginning, "mid", end, the accents are very accurate and are followed by immediately subsequent equally interesting rudiments played with class and "magic". I never get tired of watching as many of his videos as possible; always, just when gets dark and total boreness arrive. That's what art is all about; that's what truly God-given talent (and genius) is all about: to make us lighter and brighter individuals; to inspire us and make us better (even for just 1 sec) individuals and learn from this apreciation moment.

What can you say about a guy that did around 1.100 beats per minute in the 60's using traditional grip!??? That's what's been reached TODAY! In 2006. Amazing. Incredible, you (realistically) name it. I name it Buddy Rich. The greatest musical phenomenon in the percussion area EVER. Period (at least to me).

ps. For some strange and subject reason, some of my posts are still getting gently cleaned from this website... and not one ofense or bad name was taken.... hmmm.
 
CadaveR (Ivo) said:
About Buddy being the best drum technician to ever live... that's probably true. The fact that his solos did not follow a certain and restrict time did not matter at all. His solos worked as a free and spontaneous exercise of genius creativity. Which other drummer could simply seat and play like that? Out of nowhere and withouth much thinking or "special preparation"? Not many, that's for certain.

When i watch/listen to some of Buddy's solos on the hi-hat, for example, i can clearly sense his geniality in every step of the composition of such solo. The snare dynamics have an order, beginning, "mid", end, the accents are very accurate and are followed by immediately subsequent equally interesting rudiments played with class and "magic".
This kind of post convinces a whole lot better than the blind scripture I just discussed.
 
mattsmith said:
This kind of post convinces a whole lot better than the blind scripture I just discussed.

Thanks, Matt.

ps. You have a short but impressive musical history (was just checking your website...). Keep up the great job!

pss. I know you from the "old times" (Buddy Rich's official forum and stuff). Keep it FAST! Heh. Take care.
 
Re: great buddy rich video

mikejames said:
This one, coming out in September, should be a huge hit with BR fans. Buddy is obviously "in the zone" on this one... Can't wait to hear and see it! (The drum solo from "Channel One Suite" is already posted here on Drummerworld, but to see the entire performance will be exciting.)

http://jazzicons.com/#buddy


HI Mike, I checked your your Buddy Rich page ( on your web site) , I really just scanned it quickly but NICE! Stories about how you drove.......whatever and what not , just to see Buddy....anyway I was wondering...but first a thought just came to mind......until you've see Buddy live, you just might think you've found a drummer better than him.

I made this mistake once. During the Jazz Rock era with Return to Forever wowing the
Jazz world and Billy Cobham having just come out with Magic, I thought that Buddy has met his match in Billy> But then Buddy came to town (San Francisco) , so I went to see the old guy for "ol time sake" not knowing what he had in store. It was at the Great American Music Hall, and he had a Jazz Rock quartet, no horns no Big Band, just a bass,
a piano a guitar and him. 4 Dudes and I wondered "what is this gonna be?" Here's what it was. The most impressive display of Jazz Rock drumming I'd ever seen. Billy in my mind suddenly became a ghost note shy of Buddy (which is still great) but he had to be placed somewhere. Ironically later on the Tonight Show, in a interview with Buddy, when asked if there were any other great drummers out there (besides you: as Johnny would always stroke him) he did say yes, "that would be a young man named Billy Cobham".

So getting back to what I wanted to ask you.....are there or do you know of any recordings
of Buddy's Jazz Rock. I've never really looked, but I'm wondering now?

Later
Thombo
 
I don't want to step into Mike's eventual more qualified answer, but I wanted to weigh in on this one.

There are a number of fine examples of Rich playing in rock/fusion and crossover genres. Of course most people point immediately to his Pacific Jazz outing Buddy and Soul, where the switch was most apparent. But in my estimation he gets a lot better at this style a little later, although the Wonderbag track is quite good.

To me, Speak No Evil RCA from the mid 1970s, was a really fine example of Rich playing in this style. But it was destroyed by jazz critics and his main fan group, who thought Rich had sold out. A lot of the arrangements themselves weren't that great either, with slicked up silly background vocals. So you don't hear much about it now. But if some of the Rich can't play rock guys would listen to it, they would have a much better impression of his drumming in that style. The horn playing on Speak No Evil ... especially saxophonist Steve Marcus, and the trumpet work of Blood Sweat and Tears' Lew Soloff, is top notch.

You also hear fine rock based Rich examples on Roar of 74, and latter efforts where saxophonist Bob Mintzer is present. But again in most cases, the quality of the rock based arrangements themselves is so horrible, that the playing is also dismissed in hand..and except for Speak No Evil, Rich never recorded a project where he played all rock. So if there were some jazz tracks on the album, young guys would say Not a real rock record, and dismiss it. So he was gettin' it from both sides.

My feeling about his rock playing is: Much, much better than his detractors claim. In facts it's really good... but not the greatest rock drumming in history as the fanatics would say either.
 
http://jazzicons.com/#buddy
I just purchased this DVD and it's great, I was lucky to see this group Buddy's Killer Band,and on this DVD Buddy seems so relaxed just kicking the band like no one could,I recommed this one to any one who loves big band drumming or just great drumming.
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".

michael drums said:
Fact is, he was the greatest drummer to have ever drawn breath. Not my quote. Gene Krupas'.
Play on!
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

mlehnertz said:
Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".

Have a sense of humor when you read this. All opinions being subjective. Buddy had a long history of learning new styles of drumming. In 1968 he began to play big band arrangements of rock, soul and other popular music. He could play the latest styles of drumming and usually embellish them with killer fills with no effort. His versions of Mercy Mercy and Ode To Billie Joe come to mind. So based on his history and the type of drummer he was, if Buddy was alive today, I believe he could achieve anything Colaiuta or Weckl could come up with and probably go one better, just my opinion.
As for Golf, the greatest Golfer (and pool player) was W.C.
Fields. Nobody cheated like he could and there hasn't been anyone funnier to watch cheating his way through a game. :)
Matt
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

onemat said:
Have a sense of humor when you read this. All opinions being subjective. Buddy had a long history of learning new styles of drumming. In 1968 he began to play big band arrangements of rock, soul and other popular music. He could play the latest styles of drumming and usually embellish them with killer fills with no effort. His versions of Mercy Mercy and Ode To Billie Joe come to mind. So based on his history and the type of drummer he was, if Buddy was alive today, I believe he could achieve anything Colaiuta or Weckl could come up with and probably go one better, just my opinion.
As for Golf, the greatest Golfer (and pool player) was W.C.
Fields. Nobody cheated like he could and there hasn't been anyone funnier to watch cheating his way through a game. :)
Matt

Absolutely 100% right on target with that answer, onemat. No doubt about Buddys' abilities. Yes, he could have and would have been able to "go one better". He was doin' that his whole life. It may be just opinion, but the proof is in the pudding. Look what he achieved. Playing for 70+ years at "his" level. NO ONE, to this day, has his resume'. Period. Thanks onemat! Play On!

Oh, and about the sense of humor...Well Said! Great examples, too...
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

mlehnertz said:
Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".


In your opinion, of course...
 
Would it be possible for someone to share or direct me to some of Buddy's work outside of the Big Band Swing genre? Is there any recorded material?
 
Often, Buddy performed tunes with just the trio portion of his band, featuring his favorite players. And... Often Buddy would feature one or more soloists in long stretches, with the rest of the band either just sitting, or playing percussion "toys". So even with his big bands, all the tunes were not "big band". But, to answer your question...

Buddy's early career included many small groups. "Blues Caravan", for example, is a remarkable album. You can find these by simply typing "Buddy Rich recording" into "Google". Later, Buddy recorded other small group albums, including a period in the 1970's when he briefly abandonded the big band and played in New York with a sextet at the club bearing his name, "Buddy's Place". The first of those albums was "Very Live at Buddy's Place". (available at Barnes & Noble, for example, at http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=046172410421

Buddy also recorded some European performances with musician friends, including Lionel Hampton. (Check Barnes & Noble, Amazon, etc..)
 
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