John Bonham

theduke86 said:
Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
Thanks for the compliment - you said some excellent things above too - really helped get the discussion back to music which I think everyone will benefit from (oh, I sound so level headed and righteous - I'm really not!!!)
 
Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...
 
has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing
 
franklinj said:
Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...
I think I've seen that version or a version of that version. Personally, for me starting it on the and of 3 just doesn't seem to set as well on this intro because it doesn't come out correctly at the end without some metric adjustments being made. Plus that group of four 8th notes where the first and last are accented really seem to feel like they fall on a strong downbeat (they fall on 3 in my version).

As far as playing all the articulations in each hand (locked hands): I've played around with playing the entire intro with locked hands and accents, but it seems too weighed down that way. Plus, listening very closely to the recordings, I don't hear the hi-hat articulations on every attack like the MD transcription probably has. I really here those short spaces when he rides and accents on the hi-hat as something different than an attack made by a stick: with the partially open hi-hat, I hear a little "clatter" that could be mistaken as an attack, but sounds different than the other attacks because there is no stick articulation. This "clatter" attack comes off well to my ear when I play the intro as above.

That's not to say one is right or one is wrong - I just like mine better. I don't write for MD and I'm definitely not as qualifed to as the people who do, but I still like to think about this stuff and test it out as much as the next person.

You know, if you happen to have that transcription, I'd really like to see it. Is there a link or a way you could possibly email it or something? I can't help but wonder now... :)

Thanks franklinj.
 
theduke86 said:
BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?

Great, you finally got the point that we want to talk about Bonham here and not Elvin or 15 other drummers that are faster and better than Bonham. I know 15 too that are way better that I'd like to mention all from different parts of the galaxy, but we are here to talk about Bonham.
 
theduke86 said:
Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.

Yeah mee too. I like that too.
 
pdp 9091 said:
has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing

And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.
 
I grew up listening to and idolizing Bonham... I was in Guitar Ctr checking out cymbals on Sat and had to stop and watch dvd playing on the tv, with him going off on in my time of dying.. Bonzo rules
 
fixmejesus said:
And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.


and those thunderous fills in kashmir are great too

------------------------------------------------
by the way Bernhard....you know how you did that video clip with the aaron spears drum fill at the grammys....how you showed it and then put it in slow-mo a couple times....i suggest that u make a clip for the fill that bonzo pulls off near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd...that would be awesome if you could
 
What do you think of the Best of Led Zep book? I think it's a good guideline, but you have to feel it and be in total sync with your bandmates to come close to pulling it off. We don't play our medly of zep covers in front of anyone but close friends. Too much pressure. One mistake an everyone knows.
 
lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
 
NUTHA JASON said:
lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
That's cool - I think I try that myself too.

I just use the paper as a guide to refer back to once in a while. Also, going through the step of writing some things down (I don't write everything down) is just another exercise in seeing if what I think I'm playing or hearing is actually what I intend (in addition to recording myself playing it). The other thing the paper does is it allows me to easily communicate my understanding of something to someone else who isn't standing in front of my drums to hear for themselves what my understanding is.

People that are into writing lyrics or even prose alot of times keep all kinds of notebooks and ideas they want to try out. I think doing this on the drums works well for me personally. My notebook is more or less my laptop since I use Finale alot to write things out, but it's still the same idea.

Things I transcribe are different that my own snippet ideas that I've saved because I have the recording to trigger the memory, but still writing it down for me helps even though I usually set the paper aside and go off of sound and feel and memory as soon as possible.

There are alot of sources for these transcriptions out there (like that Best of Led Zeppelin drums) and I too just use that as a guide. There simply are alot of mistakes in these books and tabs, but they're probably 90-95% accurate and definitely catch things that I've missed. So, with the tabs and books and my own ear to correct mistakes I hear, it's not too difficult to come up with a transcription pretty close to a recording. Then working out the mechanics on and away from the kit it the real task. I wonder if I'll ever get the first verse of "Good Times Bad Times" up to speed... (transcribing it is alot easier than playing well).
 
NUTHA JASON said:
lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j

Some serious dedication there, Nutha!! I'd feel like a nap after 3 pennies.
 
NUTHA JASON said:
well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j


ya i can definatly hear layers even throughout the whole track
 
Hey, you know, I think I was wrong yesterday with that Rock and Roll intro. Playing through it today with the album just would not line up at the end. I think Frankinj had it correct when he said he thinks it should begin on the and of 3. The other really embarrassing mistake was that I was hearing the crash on the and of 4. It's really on the downbeat of the first bar. Sorry about that too.

Not that it matters to people who are playing the intro completely by ear, but in case anyone is using the music too, I don't want to mislead anyone. Here's what I think is a more accurate representation:

RockandRollIntro2.JPG


Also, I experimented with playing the entire intro with locked hands and it works just fine (like Franklinj mentioned the MD transcription suggested). I still like the non-locked hands as I have it above and I still hear it that way on the recording, but you know, I could be wrong about that too...
 
NUTHA JASON said:
well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j

I wasn't implying that the music is in any way straightforward, just that it seems like a lot of work, hence the nap :)
 
Hey, has anyone worked on "Custard Pie". I really like that tune and it's technically pretty straight ahead (just a little quick footwork here and there), but definitely attainable. Musically, it's excellent as everything just fits together so well and each members' ideas compliment the others.

I was wondering if people would mind going through my transcription below and let me know what they think. I didn't transcribe the whole tune note for note; I just picked key phrases and pulled those off.

One place where I did alter what's being played is in the first kick phrases of the verses (bar 5 of each verse if you're counting). I don't think Bonham plays his bass like I have it indicated, but for me, this fits very well. Also, it's not uncommon at all for him to move things down to the bass drum that other people might play on a higher drum, so I don't think it's an uncharacteristic change for me to make.

For those few phrases, I basically just moved some attacks down to the bass drum to free up my hands for the crashes. I play traditional grip and trying to get quick crashes in on the end of a 16th note string with my left is a real weak and awkward proposition for me right now. Using my bass drum here and there gives me an extra hand to work with so that I can keep my balance and still feel like the idea is flowing and still keep my rights and lefts alternating nicely.

The other thing I don't have that I think I hear are slight ride pattern variations. I think I hear an occasional double here and there (16th notes) on the HH. He does this type of thing on alot of tunes (you can even see it on the live footage in Good Times and such) and I think he's doing it here too. It's something that you hear Clyde Stubblefield and Jabb'o Starks start doing in their later stuff that they still do today, so I think it's natural for Bonham to be doing it. I'll add those little varions later as I experiment with them myself and look at them a little closer.

If you want a full-sized version, I have a PDF file available:

Custard Pie - Physical Grafitti

Thanks for any comments/suggestions you can give.
CustardPieP1.JPG


CustardPieP2.JPG
 
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