More Creative on a Smaller Kit

Dr_Watso said:
That's precisely what snare drummers do, you know. So even with the mocking tone, you're right. It's a big limitation compared to how many different voices even a small kit contains. Ever met a snare drummer who didn't know his rudiments and have amazing discipline that exceeds a typical kit drummers ability? I haven't.

Further proof that small kits rule, and big kits drool.
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If any of you haven't, I'd encourage you to watch DCI's I&E performances from any year. I&E stands for Individual and Ensemble and what it is is a day long competition between individual members of or smaller ensembles within a drum corps. It takes place at the end of the drum corps season during finals week. They do the same thing at PASIC, except it's not limited to corps members.

It's absolutely incredible what these guys do with just a snare drum.
 
Both views, small kit, big kit... make equally valid points, thankfully. More colors = more sonic possibilities. Less colors...I love black and white photos for example.

It's been proven that people are happier with less choices as opposed to more choices. There's not as much "wrong decision anxiety" going on.

Doesn't really apply to big kits, just saying. With drums, I have enough trouble getting around (and maintaining) 3 toms. I don't want more. But if I had to go bigger, I'd be OK with more cymbals.

Nice rant Mitch, I share that view as well, this place has new blood all the time so it's not a static thing. Information gets updated.

OMG here we go again lol.
 
larryace said:
...But if I had to go bigger, I'd be OK with more cymbals.

Nice rant Mitch, I share that view as well, this place has new blood all the time so it's not a static thing. Information gets updated.
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Thanks Larry. I do have my moments. ;-)

Definitely a +1 on the cymbals. You can never have too many cymbals!!

I wonder, what drummer plays with the largest number of cymbals at the same time?
 
mmulcahy1 said:
don't bust a person in the chops just because they want to talk about something they consider important enough to ask about but you find redundant.
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Fair point, I'll remove my angle grinder comment ;)

Quite seriously though, I put up a related thread last week. I played a gig I'd normally do on a 6 piece, but used a 4 piece kit, & posted a video example of me playing "Jump" as an example. The move to 4 piece was not universally well received, even though I apparently "got away with it". There's appropriate choices for each gig, & if more voices are called for, then they just are. It's not a right or wrong situation.

In that gig, the only increase in creativity I noted was the extra effort I had to expend to condense parts designed for more toms. If that's an increase in creativity per-se, then so be it. Personally, I don't think it was worth the effort. Much easier to go default for the appropriate setup for the gig IMHO.

Video clip for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACyPKVHAoY&feature=youtu.be
 
mmulcahy1 said:
Thanks Larry. I do have my moments. ;-)

Definitely a +1 on the cymbals. You can never have too many cymbals!!

I wonder, what drummer plays with the largest number of cymbals at the same time?
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Portnoy, Bozzio, Thomas Lang? Progressive drumers always have lots of bronze.
 
I can't remember having posted a comment on a thread regarding kit size.
So I guess this makes this thread new and exciting for me.

I have two toms on the rack and one on the floor. One ride and two crash cymbals.
I use the biggest drum set that I can afford to buy, that I can fit into my truck, that I can physically move around, and that will fit on the stage. (I don't want to piss off the guitar players)

If I were touring with a band and I had roadies and drum techs helping me, and large stages, I would have a HUGE drum set.

More stuff to hit = more fun = more creativity.

.
 
I don't feel that the size of the kit makes me any more or less creative either way. What it does do is change my approach to playing. I tend to sit at my large kit for more proggy, bombastic, chops-oriented playing, while my four-piece is more for grooving and a fat, chunky feel. They sound and feel very different to each other and so they allow me to capture different facets of my playing. The playing, however, is all me and I tend to sound like me no matter which kit I'm sitting at. It's just at one kit I have more different sounds at my disposal.

Is an artist drawing in black and white with a pencil any less creative than someone using Adobe Illustrator and all the colors of the rainbow? I think not. The product is just different, is all.
 
Dr_Watso said:
That's precisely what snare drummers do, you know. So even with the mocking tone, you're right. It's a big limitation compared to how many different voices even a small kit contains. Ever met a snare drummer who didn't know his rudiments and have amazing discipline that exceeds a typical kit drummers ability? I haven't.
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Nah, all they do is play the same rudiments everyone else uses. [/sarcasm]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creative
: having or showing an ability to make new things or think of new ideas

: using the ability to make or think of new things : involving the process by which new ideas, stories, etc., are created
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One could argue better execution does not necessarily equate better creativity.

Playing the entire Wilcoxon book requires great skill and discipline. But is reading notes off a page truly creative?

One could also argue that very few drummers every play anything that hasn't previously been played by someone else 1001 times.

A drummer in cover band, a drummer hired to back an established artist, a drummer hired to read a studio chart, a classical drummer reading an established written out part, or even just the drummer making cover videos in their basement, are all spitting out pre-conceived ideas. Is that really being "creative"?

Even in an original band, most of the time, a drummer is playing "for the song" and generally, for a song someone else wrote.

And thus, one could argue that someone could be an amazing and awesome drummer and not actually be the dictionary definition of creative.
 
If the song requires a money beat, but instead, the drummer is playing displaced stuff and not settling into any straight ahead rhythm....let's just say there's good creative and bad creative. Being creative alone doesn't guarantee s&^t. But everyone has their version of what's good creative and what's bad creative. So it's useless to try and define what it should or shouldn't be, except inside one's own mind.

An earlier thread posed the question if drumming is art or craftsmanship. I went with craftsmanship. Everything I've ever played has been done before. I'm not creating art. Hopefully what I do is interesting, engaging, entertaining and pleasant to listen to. I'll settle for that! You could argue that every word or idea that Shakespeare wrote had been used before too. It doesn't matter. It's all about how you arrange and execute it right now.

Seriously, creativity....I don't try to be creative on purpose at all. I try and play what the song is screaming for. It's almost the opposite of creativity. It's more like satisfying a need.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
Nah, all they do is play the same rudiments everyone else uses. [/sarcasm]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creative


One could argue better execution does not necessarily equate better creativity.

Playing the entire Wilcoxon book requires great skill and discipline. But is reading notes off a page truly creative?

One could also argue that very few drummers every play anything that hasn't previously been played by someone else 1001 times.

A drummer in cover band, a drummer hired to back an established artist, a drummer hired to read a studio chart, a classical drummer reading an established written out part, or even just the drummer making cover videos in their basement, are all spitting out pre-conceived ideas. Is that really being "creative"?

Even in an original band, most of the time, a drummer is playing "for the song" and generally, for a song someone else wrote.

And thus, one could argue that someone could be an amazing and awesome drummer and not actually be the dictionary definition of creative.
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I think a good snare drummer, much like a symphony musician might have good discipline but not creativity. The same goes for playing a cover or a written piece of music, you're disciplined and know how to do a lot of things but it's not creative.

I really disagree with your statement about original bands, when I play in my band it's 100% the drum track I wrote and came up with along side the guitar/bass tracks being written. I would feel like a robot or that I wasn't a band member if I didn't have a chance to create my part to the music. It's even happened to me where my guitarist who also plays drums wrote a drum track and I agreed that it fit but I could never enjoy playing the song. I never let someone take away my creative element when writing original music or I'll just leave the band. I'd be wasting my time and you mind as well buy a drum machine.
 
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I have the exactly correct number of drums and cymbals to maximize my creativity.

How about you guys?
 
larryace said:
An earlier thread posed the question if drumming is art or craftsmanship. I went with craftsmanship. Everything I've ever played has been done before. I'm not creating art. Hopefully what I do is interesting, engaging, entertaining and pleasant to listen to. I'll settle for that! You could argue that every word or idea that Shakespeare wrote had been used before too. It doesn't matter. It's all about how you arrange and execute it right now.

Seriously, creativity....I don't try to be creative on purpose at all. I try and play what the song is screaming for. It's almost the opposite of creativity. It's more like satisfying a need.
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Funny how I'm disagreeing with you here again, Larry, but not to worry - I just think you should give yourself more credit :)

I think it's really hard not to be some measure of both art and craft, but probably should qualify that with what I think each means. As I see it, the craft is how well you use the tools at your disposal (with both gear selection and playing ability); and the art of it is what you choose to play or not play as a reflection of your aesthetic and artistic sense.

I think you use both in spades, Larry. From taking great care with your gear selections, tunings and timing issues, to making sure you're forever being appropriate and sensitive to the the music and the other players. Quite possible for a high-caliber craftsman to come in and blast-beat the shit outta yer blooz gig! The art component is definitely part of your vibe.

Why is that an either / or again? ha ha :)

To the OP, if you couldn't tell by now, this is one of those unresolvable hot button issues. Everyone's got their own take on it but there are two central themes that keep coming up, and I totally agree with both of them! Is that even possible? But for me, I can totally see how my thought processes get more streamlined on a smaller kit. I recently went down to a 4-piece from a 5 - one up, one down (13/18) from the old one up two down (13/15/18), and it's nice because I don't have to think as much about what I'm doing and most of my tom playing only used the rack and first floor anyway. Not having my kit stretch so far to the right also allowed me to get rid of that crash above the 2nd floor - so now I'm using a ride, 2 crashes, hats, and an EFX.

Know what the driver was for my kit reduction? A 5-string bass player! Man, I don't know what it is, but I see a bass with more than 4 strings and all these red flags start going up! So I totally get the nervousness many musos feel when they see a drummer show up with a lot of drums and cymbals. There's a place for 5-string basses but a stripped down rock ensemble isn't one of them, IMO. Fusion, metal, or prog band, maybe, but not anything that derives from the simpler and seedy underbelly of rock.

Now if dude walks in with a well-worn 4-string P-Bass and an ratty Ampeg SVT rig, I'm instinctively breathing a sigh of relief knowing there isn't going to be a bunch of Victor Wooten busy slapping and popping going on. (No disrespect to VW - wizardly player still rooted in the deepest of grooves). Just sayin'
 
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MikeM said:
Know what the driver was for my kit reduction? A 5-string bass player! Man, I don't know what it is, but I see a bass with more than 4 strings and all these red flags start going up! So I totally get the nervousness many musos feel when they see a drummer show up with a lot of drums and cymbals. There's a place for 5-string basses but a stripped down rock ensemble isn't one of them, IMO. Fusion, metal, or prog band, maybe, but not anything that derives from the simpler and seedy underbelly of rock.

Now if dude walks in with a well-worn 4-string P-Bass and an ratty Ampeg SVT rig, I'm instinctively breathing a sigh of relief knowing there isn't going to be a bunch of Victor Wooten busy slapping and popping going on. (No disrespect to VW - wizardly player still rooted in the deepest of grooves). Just sayin'
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I find this hilarious... it's like saying "they've got a double kick pedal they're not going to play what music calls for". I'd toss your assumptions aside about the number of strings on a bass and wait till they play. I've played with 4 string and 5 string players that could walk all day and IMO the 5 string always sounded better since the player has some lower notes available. Just because someones instrument is different from what you think they should have doesn't mean they aren't going to play what's tasteful or needed.

I used to play with an old construction contractor that plays a 5 string ibanez and he's by far one of the most tasteful and talented players I've ever seen at playing rock, blues, classic rock and jazz. His comments on a 5 string vs 4 string bass were some where along the lines of, "It opened up a whole new dimension to my playing and I don't think I'll ever go back to playing 4 string. There's things I just can't do on a 4 string." So sometimes more things to play means more room for creativity.
 
I've been using a 4 piece kit with just 3 or 4 cymbals for years. But in the past I used to play on another drummer's kit all the time at a shared practice space which had hats, ride, crash, china, and a 3 rack, 6 piece kit with a double pedal. I used to switch up my kit from a 5 piece to a 4 piece, and add/take away cymbals.

Changing from a 4 piece to a 5 or 6 piece doesn't necessarily make my playing any more creative, just different. While with a 4 piece I may be more snare/bass/hats oriented with some quick, jazzy, unobtrusive fills in between the groove, on a 5 or 6 piece I will be more tom oriented and probably play more descending fills and parts involving toms because they are there. So adding stuff gives me more tonal colors to play with, but in terms of using those colors to the end of being more creative behind the drumset? Not really from my experience IMO.

I think there's a lower limit on kit size too. It took me a long time to play a four piece well enough so I don't miss more toms when they aren't there, and actually become very comfortable with the style, ergonomics, and aesthetics of a kit that size. I don't feel limited on a single bass, four piece, 3/4 cymbal setup, but I've tried a 3 piece without a rack tom, and though it makes your playing very groove oriented (where is there to go??) I feel very limited by the three piece, and probably will always feel limited on a kit that size.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
I'll save this thread the trouble:

Well, if you're more creative going from 6 drums to 4, imagine how much more creative you be if you went from 4 drums to one.

And then go from one to zero!
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Sounds like you believe in extremes. So I guess you drive 500 mph on the freeway, then? I mean, if 25 mph is too slow and 70 mph is pretty good, then why not 100 mph or 200 mph or 500 mph? You can't possibly be happy at 70 mph! Why stop there?

For me, 25 mph is too slow, and 500 mph is too fast. So I go 60-90 mph. Same principle might apply to drum kits, where a certain number is too few and a certain number is too many, without going to extremes.

But maybe that's just me.
 
Winegums said:
I find this hilarious...
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Ha, yeah I get what you're saying, and my rational side says the same thing, but there's another part of me that thinks there's likely to be more emphasis on playing from the fingers than playing from the ears. This is only based on my experience, and for sure doesn't apply in all cases.

Another thing I notice as it relates to drums, is no matter how many toms are being used, by and large the sticking patterns don't change an awful lot, so while there may be more colors to choose from, it's just the same patterns spread out over more drums. Neil Peart's big hero roundhouse fills are still based on the same stickings he uses for shorter fills on fewer toms.

I used to have a 6-tom double-bass setup and a 2up 2dn single kick setup and noticed that I was pretty much playing the same patterns as I did on smaller kits, only I was having to think more about which tom I was going to start from and was tending toward longer fills. That was too distracting for my comfort level.
 
Gee, now I feel dumb for mentioning the word "fun" in regards to kit size.

.
 
MikeM said:
Ha, yeah I get what you're saying, and my rational side says the same thing, but there's another part of me that thinks there's likely to be more emphasis on playing from the fingers than playing from the ears. This is only based on my experience, and for sure doesn't apply in all cases.

Another thing I notice as it relates to drums, is no matter how many toms are being used, by and large the sticking patterns don't change an awful lot, so while there may be more colors to choose from, it's just the same patterns spread out over more drums. Neil Peart's big hero roundhouse fills are still based on the same stickings he uses for shorter fills on fewer toms.

I used to have a 6-tom double-bass setup and a 2up 2dn single kick setup and noticed that I was pretty much playing the same patterns as I did on smaller kits, only I was having to think more about which tom I was going to start from and was tending toward longer fills. That was too distracting for my comfort level.
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I totally get what you mean it's all the same, I treat my 6 piece a lot like the 5 piece I started on to avoid those awkward sticking problems. I'll play a fill on 3 toms excluding one tom from the group depending on the situation. I also use the 10" and 12" toms as accents quite often and my 16" floor has it's place for builds where my 14" doesn't have the beefy bottom end.

I think more drums gives a wider range of tuning freedom and with a smaller 4 piece you're asking one drum to do the role of many so the tuning range you can have is limited. I'm picky and I like to have the exact sound I'm looking for in each part of my playing.
 
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