Time observations

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
If you guys would indulge me while I describe highlights of my inner time journeys...

So for the last 5 weeks or so my practice time has been completely devoted to time.

I set the metronome to 20 BPM, and try and bury the click...without subdividing, just my alternating hands on a snare drum. I will subdivide for a portion...it is easier to nail it more consistently. I go back and forth, mainly trying to not subdivide as to make it easier to clear my mind. Staring at something shiny directly in front of me seems to help too lol. A focal point to ground from or something.

The first week it kicked my ass all over the place and it seemed impossibly long between clicks. If I got it twice every 10 times...that was good. I would go for 20 clicks without getting it once most of the time for the first couple of weeks. It kicked my ass.

Now, in the last week, my perception is that it's not impossibly long between hits. In fact, it doesn't seem long at all now. 3 seconds go by alarmingly fast! My time perception changed. In the last week...I can nail it a lot...if my conscious mind doesn't creep in. For instance, if I bury it thrice in a row, I say to myself, "Hey, I'm getting it". Then the next few will be off lol. So I'm trying to not think those thoughts lol. It's really hard for me to clear my mind of chatter, then stay cleared. Really hard.

I want my time to be executed unconsciously. On autopilot.

I have to say, studying strict time....being able to play it just with sticks for now...light hits too...is a real adventure for me. It seems like uncharted territory to me, 20 bpm...and I have to make up my own rules that work for me to try and develop this very abstract concept of being completely even at impossibly slow tempos.

Which brings me to my next ob....My dominant side is more aligned with the click than my left side. I would have thought time was a global brain thing, but now I'm not sure. Does each half of the brain have it's own time center separate from the other half? Anyone? I really have no clue. That's just a theory. I'm just trying to make sense of what time means to me. What's going on on a physiological level...that info would help me make sense of how my brain processes time. Where is my time center? Is there just one? My goal is to have completely steady unassisted time. As far as I know, the only way to do that is to play to a metronome and figure it out for myself. Do they have classes for time?

As a side note, anyone who was familiar with my trials and tribulations of trying to play to a looper pedal live...I've been trying to do it now for probably 4 years at maybe 60 - 75% success rate...sometimes much worse lol. I wouldn't be off by much, but I was not completely on. But since I've been doing the 20 BPM thing, (about 5 weeks) honestly my success rate has gone way up to like 95% or better! I've gone whole nights without going off! That never happened before!

My reward for that is I have to play with that confounded looper pedal more and more lol. Hey, not complaining, I'll take it. It can only strengthen me.

Any comments on any portion of this novel are appreciated, and thanks for staying till the end lol.
 
The downside to developing better time is that you become way more aware of time problems in other people's playing. I spent a couple of months in college developing my time, to the point of being able to keep perfect time for several minutes without a metronome.
 
The downside to developing better time is that you become way more aware of time problems in other people's playing. I spent a couple of months in college developing my time, to the point of being able to keep perfect time for several minutes without a metronome.

You notice it in popular music, too. The lack of perfect time isn't an issue unless you've been drilling it so hard!

Drill with a click for an hour then go listen to STP (one of my fav bands) and you'll see what I mean. Back in the dirty 90's we didn't put a huge premium on perfect time.
 
Admirable of you to take on such an exercise. But let me get this straight, you will sit and hit your snare with a L then R at 20 bpm?.... for tens of minutes?

Pure and unfettered dharma Larry .......you are the Buddha of time.
 
Anything you can do to improve your timing is good.

However, practicing to 20 BPM seems tedious and unnecessary. Mainly because playing live at this tempo would be accomplished by thinking in a higher multiple tempo.
For instance counting it out in 80 BPM, hitting only on the 1.

Explain to me what you hear live on stage when you play along with the looper pedal. Do you hear a click?
Or are you just trying to keep tempo with the pre=recorded guitar playing?
I think that if a guitar player was using a looper live with you trying to keep tempo with it, then it would not sound good.
You would be playing “along” with the song instead of driving the band and the tempo like you should be doing.
Of course it might be that only another drummer would notice it.


.
 
Playing to a click is a necessary skill these days. And I can play to a click just fine....if it's in my cans. A looper live is hard to pick out because it's doing rhythm under a much louder lead, with the same general tone. Plus, I'm trying to listen from the side of his amp. Like trying to look at a candle next to the sun.

Granted my situation is a little extreme, playing with a looper live. I need to do this to satisfy myself, get my time sorted all the way.
 
Playing to a click is a necessary skill these days. And I can play to a click just fine....if it's in my cans. A looper live is hard to pick out because it's doing rhythm under a much louder lead, with the same general tone. Plus, I'm trying to listen from the side of his amp. Like trying to look at a candle next to the sun.

Granted my situation is a little extreme, playing with a looper live. I need to do this to satisfy myself, get my time sorted all the way.

If you are playing live with a looper as you described, you are my hero.
Expecting you to do this and make good music is reeediculas !!!

.
 
Anything you can do to improve your timing is good.

However, practicing to 20 BPM seems tedious and unnecessary. Mainly because playing live at this tempo would be accomplished by thinking in a higher multiple tempo.
For instance counting it out in 80 BPM, hitting only on the 1.

Explain to me what you hear live on stage when you play along with the looper pedal. Do you hear a click?
Or are you just trying to keep tempo with the pre=recorded guitar playing?
I think that if a guitar player was using a looper live with you trying to keep tempo with it, then it would not sound good.
You would be playing “along” with the song instead of driving the band and the tempo like you should be doing.
Of course it might be that only another drummer would notice it.


.

Jim, the reason I do 20 BPM is...I feel that the longer I can go between beats, the better my time will be. This last week has proven that to me. The goal is to make it hard! It's working for me. I'm not stopping at 20, 10 is next.

Onstage, no click. The looper is a device that the guitarist uses to make his own rhythm guitar recordings, on the fly, so he can play his leads to a rhythm guitar. When it's time for his lead, he will make a rhythm guitar recording for 4 bars or whatever in the very front of his lead. Then the looper keeps repeating the 4 bars he just recorded. Then he plays his lead on top of that rhythm track. It sounds fuller obviously. We are a 3 piece usually. He knows how to use the looper, I'll give him that. I haven't practiced time since 2012. So I've been slacking there. And it sounds fine...when I'm on it. It's really no different than having another player, except I'm following not leading. That's where my problem lies, I can barely hear what I'm supposed to follow. Which is met with...it shouldn't matter, just keep time. And he's right...to an extent.
 
The biggest hurdle I experience when playing to my ditto pedal isn't synch-ing for the 8 bars, it's the little hiccup in time that can occur at the end/beginning of each loop. If there isn't appropriate hinting coming early in the loop for me to align with, I'm screwed.

Being a better drummer only half fixes the problem for me. Being a better guitarist that's more accurate on the stomp would likely fix the other half.
 
Which is met with...it shouldn't matter, just keep time. And he's right...to an extent.
Remember Larry, playing with a looper means assuming that the part was played perfectly as it was being recorded, which probably doesn't happen. Unless you record it and look/listen to it you will never know. If he is slightly off somewhere, you have been working hard to make corrections and making your brain work too hard



to the point of being able to keep perfect time for several minutes without a metronome.


I'd pay money to witness that.

I'm not saying you are mistaken but I have become keenly aware of how difficult that is. I realize there are a huge number of people that are far far better than I am so there is certainly a chance of someone playing for several minutes, spot on.

I'm just saying, I'd really like to see it.

A few years ago I built a quick little file that would drop the click out for 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 measures etc. Even playing something simple at a comfortable tempo, being 100% honest with myself, I couldn't get past 4 measures at 100%. After 30 seconds, I'd be off, never to recover unless by luck.

Hell, even with a click I can see where I tend to drift around. It's rarely noticable in the recordings because it always quickly comes back home but I can certainly see it and I realize that my ability for perfection is no match for a machine.
 
Which brings me to my next ob....My dominant side is more aligned with the click than my left side. I would have thought time was a global brain thing, but now I'm not sure. Does each half of the brain have it's own time center separate from the other half? Anyone? I really have no clue. That's just a theory. I'm just trying to make sense of what time means to me. What's going on on a physiological level...that info would help me make sense of how my brain processes time. Where is my time center? Is there just one? My goal is to have completely steady unassisted time. As far as I know, the only way to do that is to play to a metronome and figure it out for myself. Do they have classes for time?

I think the brain is fairly asynchronous, and keeps time in different areas for different reasons. Couple examples are the left and right ears can tell subtle differences in delays to localize sounds. The suprchiasmatic nucleus expresses different genes throughout the day to synchronize circadian rhythms even ultradian rhythms spanning months or years.

Eventually you'll be able to sit in a dark room for 24 hours, and bury the click...

Maybe like once a year when the Equinox. You can even found a civilization that plays the note once a millennia. Some people may never even get to see the note played...
 
The dominant hand thing seems natural to me.

Your brain tells your body parts when to hit the drum and your doninant hand/foot is simply better adapted to implementing the action.
 
I'd pay money to witness that.

I'm not saying you are mistaken but I have become keenly aware of how difficult that is. I realize there are a huge number of people that are far far better than I am so there is certainly a chance of someone playing for several minutes, spot on.

I'm just saying, I'd really like to see it.

A few years ago I built a quick little file that would drop the click out for 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 measures etc. Even playing something simple at a comfortable tempo, being 100% honest with myself, I couldn't get past 4 measures at 100%. After 30 seconds, I'd be off, never to recover unless by luck.

Hell, even with a click I can see where I tend to drift around. It's rarely noticable in the recordings because it always quickly comes back home but I can certainly see it and I realize that my ability for perfection is no match for a machine.

I guarantee that, not only can I myself do it, but that several pro drummers here can. I simply took a 2-3 minute piece of moderate difficulty, and recorded myself playing it, then played it back and kept a metronome going during playback. After 20-30 minutes daily of this for 2-3 months, I could keep perfect time with the metronome on playback with no trouble. It just takes time and patience.
 
Remember Larry, playing with a looper means assuming that the part was played perfectly as it was being recorded, which probably doesn't happen. Unless you record it and look/listen to it you will never know. If he is slightly off somewhere, you have been working hard to make corrections and making your brain work too hard






I'd pay money to witness that.

I'm not saying you are mistaken but I have become keenly aware of how difficult that is. I realize there are a huge number of people that are far far better than I am so there is certainly a chance of someone playing for several minutes, spot on.

I'm just saying, I'd really like to see it.

A few years ago I built a quick little file that would drop the click out for 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 measures etc. Even playing something simple at a comfortable tempo, being 100% honest with myself, I couldn't get past 4 measures at 100%. After 30 seconds, I'd be off, never to recover unless by luck.

Hell, even with a click I can see where I tend to drift around. It's rarely noticable in the recordings because it always quickly comes back home but I can certainly see it and I realize that my ability for perfection is no match for a machine.

You notice it in popular music, too. The lack of perfect time isn't an issue unless you've been drilling it so hard!

Drill with a click for an hour then go listen to STP (one of my fav bands) and you'll see what I mean. Back in the dirty 90's we didn't put a huge premium on perfect time.

I assume time is better on the West Coast, on average. I hear playing with a click is an expected skill on a lot of gigs there.
 
Good job larry. Ain't easy! I posted a thread a while back where I was practising at 10 bpm. But I was playing subdivisions in the form of a swing beat between clicks.
I think you're better off counting subdivisions. You're in the zone now because you've been practising it regularly, but I'm not sure the brain will retain that ability as well as it does with faster tempos, because there's too much space between clicks at 20 bpm. It's too slow for the human brain to feel those spaces naturally whereas feeling subdivisions would probably give you a better shot at imprinting the tempo in your mind.
 
I assume time is better on the West Coast, on average. I hear playing with a click is an expected skill on a lot of gigs there.

Nah. Time is time, and musicians are musicians. In my experience, time is one of those things that you just have to let your body learn over the years. You can drill it and get close to "perfect", but the best players are the ones who can let a tune breathe in a natural way and the whole band just grooves. I only get that feeling when I'm playing with actual accomplished guys who've spent a lot of time behind their instruments. Basically everyone is always listening, and doing minor adjustments that influence the other players in kind. It's a whole band time keeping as opposed to following the drummer or click.

As for expected skill, it depends on the genre and the players. I'd say it's about 50/50 in my circles.
 
I think you're better off counting subdivisions............

because there's too much space between clicks at 20 bpm. It's too slow for the human brain to feel those spaces naturally whereas feeling subdivisions would probably give you a better shot at imprinting the tempo in your mind.

I agree that subdividing is easier. I'm over 95% accurate subdividing at 20 BPM. I use triplets because they would be 1 second per partial. I want to be able to duplicate 1 second without assistance.

I don't want to make it easier on myself...at practice. 3 seconds between beats is not too slow to feel those spaces naturally. I'm doing it fairly close in only 5 weeks time, straight away from the first few clicks. In the beginning, yea, most definitely. It took me a bit to wrap my head around it. But with some time spent, I can feel 3 seconds now. I think it's strengthening my time as evidenced in my recent successes with the looper.

On a gig, if I need to, I don't subdivide but I will count quarters. The tempos are fast enough to not have to subdivide.

At practice...I want to stretch my "time muscle" :)
 
Can you mic his amp and boost his feed to your head set? If he's a little quick or slow on the pedal you could adjust quickly.
 
I'm not an expert in the field, so only my opinion, but I'm not sure how one BPM transfers through practice to another, unless they are close. I'm not sure if playing at 20 will ever help playing at 120. Now off to do reserch on learning and rhythm.
 
So Larry are you trying to feel this slow tempo to increase your sense of time? I can count it and make it work but crap trying to just wing and feel it that slow. I'll have to try it-does seem like it will make you aware of "time". Some tempos are so natural and easy-a "time" frame we are accustomed but the slow ones are always a bugger-perhaps the slower can be just as natural.
 
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