the Dualist debate...

AvengedDrummer said:
You know what id do? get a dualist, slap it on a cowbell mount. Just imagine! double cowbell solos!
Exactly....more cowbell. I tried out the Dualist at the NAMM show several years ago and I'm kinda suprised it's still being made. So someone out there, or lot's of someones are buying it.They won't be seeing my wallet, however.
 
The duallist reminds me of the Shaver companies .
2 blades now 3 now 4 where will it end......
Oh wait a triple pedal on each side......
More toys
Seriously I have tried the Dualist at NAMM
And it simple to use but....
My problem with it is .... I am NOT really playing the patterns it was producing.
So in my opinion it is an FX pedal like a delay you are not really playing the echo.
Duallist echo pedal LOL
Just my 3 cents I am getting greedy!
Tim
 
Tim Waterson said:
And it simple to use but....
My problem with it is .... I am NOT really playing the patterns it was producing.
So in my opinion it is an FX pedal like a delay you are not really playing the echo.
Duallist echo pedal LOL
Just my 3 cents I am getting greedy!
Tim

just to keep things straight on this pedal, so as not to confuse it even more, you actually WERE playing the patterns that the pedal was producing. your foot goes down, the beater strikes. your foot comes back up, the other beater strikes. the player remains in total control of both beaters. it's not like an echo pedal at all.
 
brokenhalo said:
you actually WERE playing the patterns that the pedal was producing. your foot goes down, the beater strikes. your foot comes back up, the other beater strikes. the player remains in total control of both beaters. it's not like an echo pedal at all.

Actually, from what we've read on here, the foot coming up doesn't always trigger the second beater, if you don't do it just right?

Wouldn't that be more like a "tap in" function of a digital delay. I.e., you stomp down to start the timer, then when your foot comes up, it determines the tempo for the one delay note?

In any case, if it produces a sound on the way down then up, the only way to play triplets is to go DOWN UP DOWN, then NEVER let your foot off the pedal again!!!! Or, your next down beat is no an UPSTROKE with the pedal.

Aggghhh, forget that noise!

Good shaver analogy Tim. You know us Americans...bigger is better! (More is better in this case???). Ughh, that's one thing I don't miss about the States for sure.
 
Stu_Strib said:
Actually, from what we've read on here, the foot coming up doesn't always trigger the second beater, if you don't do it just right?

Wouldn't that be more like a "tap in" function of a digital delay. I.e., you stomp down to start the timer, then when your foot comes up, it determines the tempo for the one delay note?

In any case, if it produces a sound on the way down then up, the only way to play triplets is to go DOWN UP DOWN, then NEVER let your foot off the pedal again!!!! Or, your next down beat is no an UPSTROKE with the pedal.

Aggghhh, forget that noise!.

theres no "trick" to getting the second beater to strike. you put your foot down to play one beat, and when your foot comes back up to the starting position, the second beater strikes. theres a strap and a spring that use the momentum of the upstroke to swing the second beater. it basically works like a normal bass pedal stroke, but in reverse which is why the springs are so tight, and why the springs force the footboard back into the up position. if you were to apply some pressure and not let the footboard come all the way back up, the beater wouldnt strike until the footboard came back up.

and to play triplets, your assumptio is correct. down, up, down then up,down,up for the second triplet. its like a strange version of lrl rlr lrl rlr
 
I've wanted a Duallist for years and finally got one last week. I've spent years developing superb single-pedal chops and left-foot hi-hat skills. I've tried double pedals a few times but they are clumsy and disorienting and thought this could help out.

HOW COW! The Duallist has unleashed a dormant skill that was just waiting for the right instrument to bring it out. I'm playing funky triplets, shuffles, you name it - all interlaced with mad hi-hat stops, splashes, shimmers, closed-open grooves, etc. It's just hell of FUN to play.

If the Duallist is cheating, then traditional double pedals are dumb and inefficient. Actually, double pedals are cheating because shouldn't a drummer be able to play everything he needs with one single pedal??

More than any other instrument, drums are marked by invention, experimentation, innovation and trying new ways. If we listened to those who shriek "CHEATER!" we'd still be hitting rawhide drums with mastodon bones (actually, sticks are a simple machine that allow faster action than the hand, so sticks are cheating too).

So, go ahead and invest thousands of hours in getting your left foot to do what your right foot does just fine and neglect your hi-hit skills while you're at it. As for me, I'll let my left foot do what it does best and my right foot do what it does best and I'll smoke any two-footed player with one foot and the Duallist!! HAHA and sorry that your many hours of practice don't mean squat because of your outdated and inefficient double pedals.

While you're at it, I can make you a great deal on some slightly used mastodon bones. They'll compliment your double pedals well.
 
Stu_Strib said:
Ok, that was really weird.

Thanks for posting that Brokenhalo (kinda). That was the kind of response this thread needed 4 pages ago. Someone who knows what they are talking about and explained the shortcomings very well!

Too bad your first post on here was to call out a plagiarist. ;-)
here's a thought... read the entire post first ...then open your mouth
 
Stu_Strib said:
With the duelist double, I guess the only way to do a real triplet (unlike their non-triplet demo) would be DUD UDU DUD UDU, but who thinks in Up and Down when playing a pedal? And god forbid if you end on a down beat, because you are gonna get the upbeat weather you want it or not (as soon as you lift your foot).

This is the main problem with this contraption.

Oh and yeah, before you guys say it, no I haven't used it, but I saw enough on their own promotional videos to smell a skunk.

This is a common mistake for those who are not familiar with The Duallist and its subtleties. Because all they know is the inefficient ham-handedness of traditional double pedals, they assume The Duallist has the same limitations. It doesn't.

At first, I thought you'd only be able to play LRLRLRLR patterns on The Duallist. In fact, you are playing on two planes, separated by a midpoint. At the midpoint, both beaters are even and the same distance from the drum head (around two inches or more, depending on individual settings).

When you press down on the pedal (going south of the midpoint), the primary beater moves to the head and the secondary moves away. You could play south of the midpoint all the time, so the secondary beater would just flop around but never come close enough to contacting the head. Likewise, you could stay north of the midpoint and play with the secondary beater only - the primary beater would flop around, but never contact the head. (In this case, you're training your foot to play a note on the upstroke, which is pretty difficult, but if you have a well-trained right foot, it's not that hard.)

So, you could play paradiddles, double strokes, ratamacues, flams, etc., simply by playing combinations of strokes above and below the midpoint, all with one foot. This takes practice! About the only thing you can't do on The Duallist that you could do on a traditional double pedal is splashes (both beaters hitting at the same time).

As I said, for those who have a well-developed right foot, this will come quickly with practice. But if you've spent years and years building your technique around the wastefulness, inefficiency and clumsiness of traditional double pedals, you're rightly going to feel threatened.

For those with good right foot technique, The Duallist catapults you past the drudgery of re-learning basic patterns on two feet and it immediately gets you into new, exciting and FUN creative territory.
 
Well, if traditional pedals are "dumb and inefficient", how does one do an accent of the upstroke? Hmmmm?

"actually, sticks are a simple machine that allow faster action than the hand, so sticks are cheating too" - making a comment like that. It's not in the same category as this pedal. you are still doing the work, it is NOT cheating, it is so we can play without hurting ourselves. If it is, throw down your sticks and hit your cymbals with your bare hands. Saying that is the equivalent of saying PEDALS are cheating. double the Duallist.

"So, go ahead and invest thousands of hours in getting your left foot to do what your right foot does just fine and neglect your hi-hit skills while you're at it. As for me, I'll let my left foot do what it does best and my right foot do what it does best and I'll smoke any two-footed player with one foot and the Duallist!! HAHA and sorry that your many hours of practice don't mean squat because of your outdated and inefficient double pedals." - making a stupid comment like that is completely unneccesary. With trad. double pedals, your left foot is independant and still does the work. With the Duallist, it is just a mechanism performing it for you. Double pedals aren't cheating for this reason.

So go on, do double's, paradilles, FLAMS and ratamacues with your "Duallist" as well and efficiantly and cleanly as with a double, oh wait, it's just a stupid gimmick. Because it is stupid. Go play with mastodon bones. I can guarantee that thereare thousand that could "smoke" you and your one foot with ease. Using it is just like using a trigger to double your hit, you're only putting in half the effort, and I bet that it feels like sh*t.
 
Chip said:
So go on, do double's, paradilles, FLAMS and ratamacues with your "Duallist" as well and efficiantly and cleanly as with a double, oh wait, it's just a stupid gimmick. Because it is stupid. Go play with mastodon bones. I can guarantee that thereare thousand that could "smoke" you and your one foot with ease. Using it is just like using a trigger to double your hit, you're only putting in half the effort, and I bet that it feels like sh*t.

maybe DMC is bragging a bit much about his prowess, but calling this pedal a "gimmick" and likening it to a trigger that doubles your hit (what trigger does that btw? i cant think of any.) is just proving your ignorance and the fact that you havent actually played this pedal or read what people who have played this pedal have written about it. its not cheating and what ive written and what DMC has reiterated prove that fact.
 
brokenhalo said:
likening it to a trigger that doubles your hit (what trigger does that btw? i cant think of any.)


You've never heard of digital delay?
 
Stu_Strib said:
You've never heard of digital delay?

sure i have! but thats not what a trigger does. thats an outboard effect. just semantics, but i'll flesh it out a little bit.. even if you were to use a digital delay with a triggered drum, it wouldn't sound right anyway. i've played extensively with the onboard d.d. on my td-20 and with running a line out into a boss dd-6 guitar pedal. nothing really sounds "proper" coming out of either box. although using a dd-6 to loop short drum phrases and playing over them is quite fun, there's really no way to make a trigger/d.d. cheat in the way that chip implied.
 
DMC

really glad you're making out allright with that pedal. i didn't want to invest the time in learning how to tame that beast, but i could definitly see the possibilities that it held. good luck to you .
 
Thanks for the good wishes, brokenhalo, and I'll post updated on my experiences with the pedal. It seems there is an overabundance of opinion here on The Duallist, but a lack of input here from people who actually use the thing.

Another reason why I can't play a double pedal is that I already have a pedal for a percussion item, a hi-hat and a variable pitch drum (see www.b-radpercussion.com) as well as the bass drum. I simply can't FIT a fifth pedal into my setup. The Duallist uses space very efficiently.
 
Yeah, my comments were a bit harsh....

I personally wouldn't get one, as I've just finally grasped heel toe(speaking of which, you should attempt heel toe with this pedal, THAT would be crazy), thus disbanding my interest in this product. I just feel that if you're not doing the action, it's just not cricket. It would be like having sticks that bounce twice without your guidance. I'm not jumping on the "it's cheating" bandwagon, it just feels like it has a different, mechanical feel. Like the accents would never be as loud as the downstroke.

In retrospect, if you find it better and easier, why bother with what anybody else says? You're happy with it, and can use it well, and that's all that matters.
 
brokenhalo said:
sure i have! but thats not what a trigger does. thats an outboard effect. just semantics,


My only three experiences in three years of drum teching with drummers using triggers, all three of them had some sort of ability to "tap in" the digital delay rate with their triggers. I thought it was cheezy (and still do). To me it was like playing keyboards with your feet.

Just my experience; maybe more guys use them in more of a legit way, and less of an electronic gimmick.
 
Chip said:
Yeah, my comments were a bit harsh....

I personally wouldn't get one, as I've just finally grasped heel toe(speaking of which, you should attempt heel toe with this pedal, THAT would be crazy), thus disbanding my interest in this product. I just feel that if you're not doing the action, it's just not cricket. It would be like having sticks that bounce twice without your guidance. I'm not jumping on the "it's cheating" bandwagon, it just feels like it has a different, mechanical feel. Like the accents would never be as loud as the downstroke.

In retrospect, if you find it better and easier, why bother with what anybody else says? You're happy with it, and can use it well, and that's all that matters.


Chip, what is the "heel toe" technique of which you speak? Do you mean a Vruk attachment? It would indeed be crazy to mate a Duallist with a Vruk - The Vrukist. (I would laugh my head off if any Duallist purists cried, "THAT'S CHEATING!")

Also, as I play more with The Duallist, I am becoming aware of some of its limitations. I am finding that you cannot make the secondary beater ever hit as hard as the first (as your intuition told you), although you can make it sound pretty good anyway by adjusting tension, stroke length, etc.

The Duallist makes some things easier, such as shuffles and simple sixteenths (and that covers a lot of musical territory right there). But other things are harder than a double pedal, such as double-stroke rolls, paradiddles and anything not in the LRLRLRLR mode. Some things are impossible, such as splashes. But The Duallist allows some things that are impossible on a double pedal, such as keeping the left foot on the hi-hat or percussion item.

On the other hand, the fact that you're using your well-trained right foot helps somewhat. I'm finding my right foot is waiting and eager to do the subtle movements The Duallist requires and it is coming along with practice.
 
Heel-toe is difficult to explain...... I've known about it for a few months and I'm only just starting to beable to do it cleanly and faster than heel up.
You don't need the Vruk to do it, essentially you stomp the pedal (don't break it haha) and as you do, with your foot on the heel plate, roll your foot up, using the heel as fulcrum, and play a normal heel down stroke. Derrick Pope said his heel toe video is due thurs-fri, so get it.

I feel that one will never be able to put they're soul into it (second stroke) with the duallist. Great invention though. Sounds corny, but..........
 
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