Arky's DIY cymbal modification stuff

Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Some pics from the newest modifications...
More info tomorrow. (Im too tired for now, that 10 km run has finished me.)

No more DIY'ing ahead but one interesting auction ending on Sunday (6 cracked cymbals).
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Instead of rewriting I copied the post from my parallel thread in a parallel drum universe (Derek Roddy's website/forum), haha. The last few days of DIY'ing have been a bit chaotic and have kept me busy, I feel like I need some rest. (Or making more bell holders, having... what is it, 33? bells now.)

------

(October 6th)

One of those cymbal packs (UFIP, Paiste, Platin, Zultan) arrived.
As always I first checked their as-is sound.

Paiste 2000 Sound Reflection 16'' Crash:
Sounded impressive even with the crack. Must have been a sweet crash! Having (more than) enough bells I thought I'd utilize more of the cymbals than cutting them down to bells so I figured that Paiste would be good for a 12'' splash.
Polished the Paiste in the evening.

The Paiste splash sounded a bit harsh and direct to me. I thought adding some holes would make the sound more interesting.

Zultan CM17B Aja Series Crash (17''):
Sweet crash (thin material), pretty useable with the crack. I knew it had one crack but noticed a 2nd (smaller) crack when I polished that cymbal. It was clear that cutting this crash would be a waste. So I planned to make it into an ozone style cymbal, 'covering' the crack with a hole and adding a few more for aesthetics/balance. When I noticed the 2nd crack the hole configuration boiled down (due to the angles resulting from the crack position) to 6, or maybe 3, holes. The cracked cymbal was a bit out of balance as it came so I figured that the hole placement could be used to set off that dysbalance to some degree. I went for a 3-hole configuration. The holes had to be around/at least 6 cm in diameter to cover the main crack - I made them 6 cm. The 2nd hole to cover the smaller crack isn't exactly 120 degrees from the 1st hole but I displaced the perfect position as far as possible to still fully cover that 2nd hole. The 3rd hole was placed in average distance from the other 2 holes.
I polished that cymbal on the same day, did the hole markings on the following day (Sunday - no noise allowed) and did the cutting on Oct. 8th.
PS: I didn't check out the market price beforehand - seems the Aja 17'' goes for 59 Euros - my guess was way more than that! To me it sounds better than 59 Euros.
Polished the Zultan in the evening.

Ufip (Earcrafted Cymbals) Experience series 14'' Crash:
Sounded promising in as-is condition. I went for a bell diameter which wouldn't completely cover the cracked area but to have as much sound out of that specific (crippled) bell as possible. I didn't like the look though - the sound was surprisingly good for a 'less than optimum' bell - and sanded it down by a few mm's. The look was much better now! Surprisingly the bell still sounded good, the pitch remained exactly the same (I did a comparison with another bell from a 'diatonic' family). With those few mm's less rim it did lose a tiny bit of level but it's still useable. The resonance/body is poor (would have taken more edge material to begin with), this bell has an emphasis on harmonics, it cuts. (I'm considering selling it.)

Platin Drums:
Wow wow... Who manufactures crap like this?? Hahaha. It sounds so poor... On top of that - it _looks_ poor!
I could/should have discarded that one right away but no, it received the same treatment as usual. I had hopes the bell would sound nice... not really. Even the bell sounds thin, cheap, lifeless... But I noticed that this bell goes well with the only china bell I did so far. The Platin bell is 3 semitones higher in pitch but has somewhat similar sonic characteristics. (I don't really like that china bell, too.) I cut the bell and polished it on the same day.

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(October 7th)

Repolished the 2 bells from that most recent cymbal pack. That Platin bell took quite some polishing work to look ok. I'll have to buy new polishing paste soon. That Gundelputz polish lasted many years for guitar, studio gear and small stuff but gets some serious use now that I'm messing with cymbals, haha.

----------

(October 8th)

'Ozoned' both the Paiste 2000 and the Zultan Aja crash. The Zultan took about 15 minutes for cutting the holes - I figured a cutting disk would be too awkward/big to get this job done. It could be used but there would be more than enough material to be sanded away afterwards so I used a Dremel with small disks instead. Hadn't used Dremels for cymbal mods before so first I used the thin disks - and needed 2 of them to cut the 3 Aja holes.

The Paiste was a bit thicker but I thought I'd try and just continue with the Dremel. Igot through 4 or 5 of the thin disks (and had cut 4 holes on the Paiste util then) but then decided to try one of those thicker ones. Which was a good decision because that one disk made it for the rest, with not too much wear on it.

I'm keeping in mind I paid 13.60 Euros for that cymbal pack (shipping was extra)... Ok, those 2 bells aren't superb but I got 1 nice crash and 1 cool splash out of it.

I've made pics of everything, will edit & upload some of them later.

I found a notification card in the mail box - while I was working in the garage the delivery man came by (that other 4-cymbal package) but nobody opened. I'll pick up that other cymbal package in the afternoon or tomorrow - more modding ahead ;-)

- - -

EDIT: Picked those up in the afternoon. It was hard/impossible to judge from the orig. pic how close some cracks were running towards the bell section - overall those cymbals are pretty beaten up, haha. I briefly checked them for sound, pre-polished the bell areas (top and bottom) to save some time tomorrow and prepared the markings where to cut the bells.

- The Paiste 101 Brass 18'' Crash Ride leaves a so-so impression. The crack stops a mere 1 cm before the bell. On the Paiste I did the markings as if there was no crack, for maximum sound. Meaning after the cut there will be a tiny crack of a few mm length, shouldn't be a problem. In case the crack is audible I'd flex it out a bit.

- The Sabian AAX 14'' Mini Chinese is the only cymbal of those 4 which would allow to make a splash out of it (around 8'' max), but I've done the markings for bell dimensions. Not sure though... why not try the splash route and see how it sounds.

- The 2 Z Custom Rock Crashes 18'' and 16'' don't leave any more options but making bells out of them. The 18'' has a quite pronounced bell, I guess it'll be killer after the mod.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

(October 9th)

As you can see, first I cut out the UFIP bell a bit larger but then trimmed it down a bit, for cosmetics. Still a useable bell but one of those 'shrieking' ones with lots of harmonics.
Cut down the Paiste 2000 crash to 12'' but then decided to ozone-ify it.

The Zultan... had 2 cracks. Luckily their placement allowed for a 3-hole configuration to get rid of the cracks, plus the dysbalance of the cymbal got much better by drilling those holes. It crashes up nicely now. When cutting out the holes (Dremel tool with small cutting disk) I did straight cuts as you can see in the pic, later sanded it with a drill plus sanding bit. Actually as one of the holes was just marginally larger than the (main) crack that cut-out piece fell apart by itself, haha. On one of the other cut-out pieces you can see where I've marked the 2nd/smaller crack.

Oops... That's the double pedal below the PC desk ;-)

The Paiste 2000 crash as 12'' splash, plus the hole markings. The holes are a bit large in diameter in relation to the overall diameter but I thought that would be ok, plus I had a solder reel holder at hand which could be used to do the markings.

- - - - - -

Today's result of modding those 1x Paiste, 1x Sabian China, 2x Zildjian cymbals.

The Zildjian bells turned out as massive as I thought - they're just 1 semitone apart, with the bigger bell (from the 18'' crsh) being the _lower_ one in pitch! They have a crystal clear, glassy and cutting sound with more than enough harmonics. (I'm imagining the 2 Zildjian ZBT rides I had - see very first post of this thread - but sold them - would have made brutal bells.) Those new Zildjian bells overlap in pitch with other bells I have. But their rich harmonics are a nice addition as I don't have bells with the same pitch _and_ those super rich harmonics so I'm glad having them to create new bell groups.

The Paiste (brass) was weird to cut... When I was cutting it all of a sudden the cymbal 'flipped' when I got near the crack. Then a few seconds later it flipped again... man those Paiste brass cymbals do have some tension going on, haha.

On the bottom pic of the China you see the initial markings I did for the bell. Later I decided to make it a splash. The markings got off during polishing.

The last 2 pics are just for parade. (That Sabian XS20 was cut down to get rid of a crack.)

- - - - - -

The same 4 cymbals, with before/after pics. The labels don't always line up perfectly as you can see. I did try to stick to keeping them in a 'correct' position. On one of the Z's the logo is quite off compared to the top logo.

The Paiste bell has a tiny crack in the rim but it has no effect so I don't care. The bell does sound ok but I have better ones.
Oh boy, I just noticed... On the 'after' pic, the Paiste rim is flipped, haha. In the top row you see how the Paiste top looks like. On the 'after' pics I messed up the top and bottom ;-)

The Sabian Chinese - I made a splash instead of a bell - is actually crashable/trashable, not very loud but still has that Chinese sound to it. So it seems Chinese bells/splashes do need some diameter to work. The Chinese has quite thin material, too. This Chinese splash is a perfect fit to that crappy Platin bell and the other Chinese bell I have. Those in themselves were rather disappointing to me but in combination with the new Chinese splash they make sense. I'm looking forward to modding more (cracked) Chinese cymbals, haha.

As said in a previous post, on the 2 Zildjians I went for reasonable bell dimensions. On one bell there's a tiny trace of the crack so if I cut out another 1 mm there would be nothing left but it's no prob as is, it's almost invisible. So apart from the China the bells are actually the only reasonable mod I could do.

- - - - - -

Let's get ready to rumble! --- The tools I used. There's a new cutting disk on the workbench - that's the original size. The one attached to the Dremel is what was left when I was done with all the cutting.

Middle row: Those 3 new bells (Paiste, 2x Z's) plus the China splash. I had to remove one threaded rod as the China splash dimensions were a bit too large to accomodate that splash on the regular 5-way holder.

Bottom row: The 'China setup'. That (Meinl?) China bell, that cheapo Platin which seems to work fine in a China context, and the newest addition, the AAX China splash. On the China splash the Sabian logo came off during polishing but I left that label reading 'Mini Chinese 14''/36 cm'.

Those 4 cymbals ran me a whopping 1.50 Euros, haha! Plus a couple hours of work: guessing/from memory: 10-15 minutes cutting, 15 minutes at the sanding machine, some 40 minutes for reworking the edges, 30 minutes for polishing, another 30 minutes for cleanup and protection. That's around 2 hours. Maybe it was a bit more overall. [Honestly yes - when it comes to polishing/cleaning up I was washing my hands often. The polishing paste I'm using smells and makes my fingers turn black instantly - don't want to use gloves though. So for the cleanup it's basically a must to wash one's hands every 5-10 minutes.]

[===End of copied posts.===]


What a pity I don't know how to properly line up pics within a post to have text - pics - text - pics etc. So you have to figure out wich info refers to which pic.
 
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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

7 more cracked (or dented/abused) cymbals shipping... Paid 5 Euros per cymbal. The bells are ok, some cymbals could be made into splashes. 1 looks like a real cheapo (top left), I guess it'll sound horrible (I already have one of those - but that one fits well into the china bell range). Should get them by the weekend and probably mod them right away (can't wait to do some cymbal cutting - it's been awhile, haha).

Thinking about it... Better to simply sell on that cheapo cymbal, it's not worth doing anything with it.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Here's a 'mosaique' snapshot after cutting & polishing.
From top (left to right) to bottom (L to R) we have (maybe the polish made them sound a tad brighter):

- No-name/cheapo crash (probably Platin Drums) 16’’/40 cm --> surprisingly low pitch, poor sustain/volume
- Millenium Crash 13-13.5’’/34 cm --> low pitch considering the diameter, poor sustain/volume
- Paiste 302 Hi-Hat Top 14’’/36 cm --> unspectacular
- Paiste Alpha Sound Edge Hi-Hat 14’’ Top --> ok, clear sound
- Zildjian ZBT Crash 16’’/40 cm --> thin, cowbell like.
- Zultan 16’’/40 cm China "YiN" --> trashes up nicely, 2-3 semitones lower in pitch than the other existing china splash.
- Zultan [43cm17’’ Crash] (black metal - couldn't identify the exact model designation) --> clear, powerful/aggressive

That ZBT material had quite some tension, it 'flipped' while cutting it.
That china has quite thin material, cutting the splash felt like working butter with a knife, haha. I decided to leave the logos/labels on the Zultan china.
I cut the Zultan black crash free handed because it was hard/impossible to do the markings. I tried to keep a steady cutting distance to the bell outlines.

Quick garden foto session:
Center cymbal = that aggressive sounding Zultan bell/black material. That is, the black colour partly came off during the polishing, the result looks quite unique and cool IMO.
Those 2 china splashes; middle = that Paiste Alpha hihat bell.

That batch of DIY bells probably has the most so-so bells so far. Those mediocre bells might make a fine addition into existing bell groups though, let's see.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Our Drumerworld member Mad About Drums has created a nice picture with 2 lovely ladies I mentioned in his thread (Rachel Hurd-Wood and Caroline Munro)...

MAD's cartoons & CD covers...
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101524

Here's the pic ;-)

For those who don't know - Caroline Munro (depicted on the right) had a brief appearance in a James Bond movie (The Spy Who Loved Me) and 2 more prominent roles in The Golden Voyage Of Sinbad (classy costumes!) and in the trashy SciFi movie Star Crash (as Stella Star).
Rachel Hurd-Wood (depicted on the left) was starring in The Perfume (plus a few more movies, but check her out in The Perfume!!!). Both The Perfume and that Sinbad movie have excellent soundtracks BTW.

- - - -

As for the bells - I've been refocussing on other stuff recently but will finish grouping them into 'families' and finally record more samples and/or some demo videos.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

It's been awhile... I was trying to stay away from buying more (cracked) cymbals and was even successful for quite some time but couldn't resist those 2 - Zildjian Z-Custom crashes 18'', 19''. As usual, I got them via Ebay/2nd hand, they haven't arrived yet. They've already been 'repaired' by the previous owner.

Not sure whether to mod them into splashes (having enough intact area around the bell) or doing a straight to bell mod. - I had 2 Z-Custom bells before - they were extremely loud/cutting/glassy but I gave those to a drummer fellow, haha.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Hi Arky,
I downloaded your samples and intend loading them into my new SPD-SX. Just wanted to say thanks, as I think they may be useful to complement my TD20 kit. If you have any more they would be very much appreciated.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Hey, that's cool! Those DIY bells are a great way to save yourself some money because all those brand bells aren't anything extraordinary compared to DIY, provided you get some half decent (cracked) cymbals to begin with. That's my impression from a few quick listening comparisons but also from feedback I got (on facebook, from a drummer group).

I should record some more. With a bit more samples per bell - because they do have different timbres depending on how you're hitting them.

Currently I have some 35-40 (a handful crappy sounding ones, too, plus 2 Chinese splashes), the samples are from the first 10 bells I've done. So there's a lot of newer stuff to record. I think this time I'll provide the full samples like before (letting the bells ring out completely) but also some processed samples with hotter levels and less ringing time, for more real world situations.

TD20? Wow - must be fun. I had a TD9 for temporary use - that would be the minimum in e-drums for me personally.
 
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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Wow, how did I miss this thread before?

I love bells!

I've been wanting to do the same kind of thing for some time, but lack the proper equipment to cut the cymbals.

I'm going to have to download the samples when I'm at home.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

What do you guys use to cut these cymbals?
I live in India, and here we don't have garages or backyards..
So please recommend me something I can use on my inside my home.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

The tools I'm using have already been mentioned, plus pics - see posts #11 and #21:

This is what I've been using:
* disk cutter
* dremel tool (to cut out cracks or for O-zone styling)
* sanding block
* hand files
* sandpaper
* polish

Not quite sure what tools you can use if you don't have e.g. a disk cutter - because that tool is super handy for cutting work. I would not recommend using tin snips because those will/can bend the edges and you don't want this to happen.

BTW, I've sold a few of those o-zoned cymbals, somehow I didn't really need them. Also bought a few new (cracked) cymbals, enough material to make splashes instead of straight-to-bell mods.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

More cymbal DIY'ing - this time I went for modding 5 cracked cymbals into splashes as I have (more than) enough bells and for more variety in sound.
I went for the biggest diameter possible, just enough to get rid of the cracked areas. Pics in the first 3 rows are pics from the orig. Ebay auctions.

* Paiste 2002 16'' Crash
* Sabian AAXtreme China 15''
* Zildjian A-Custom Projection Crash 19''
* Zildjian Z-Custom 18'' Crash
* Zildjian Z-Custom 19'' Crash

The splash made from the Z-Custom 18'' has a slightly inverted edge after the cutting - that's because with those areas removed, the stability/balance of the cymbal has changed. It needs to be rehammered to get it into 'normal' shape. Some rehammering and/or lathe processing would be a good idea to get the most out of cymbals modded into splashes but I have no experience in hand-hammering yet and no means to lathe so this is theory for now.

The Sabian China splash has some cracks around the middle hole, the material is rather thin and in total the modded cymbal sounds rather soft and unspectacular. It's some 2 semitones away from another china splash I have so while it's not impressive per se it might work in a certain setting.

As for the other splashes - hard to describe them but they all sound interesting in their own way, still quite some volume/meatiness left. I should check out some splash cymbals at my music dealer next time to get a better understanding of what they're supposed to sound like and then decide whether to rework those DIY splashes.

The A-Custom Projection Crash was the only crash where I decided to cut the remaining outer area for 'cymbal ring' applications (either keeping it or selling it on). That ring can be used for sound effects.

Haven't polished them yet, and the edges need some reworking beforehand.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Here's a few pics of those 5 crashes modded into splashes (polished).
 

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Wow now Ive seen these mods its got me thinking. I have a sabian 16 inch crash I've never really used. Anyone have any ideas what could be to it to make it sound better/differnet. Or shall I just cut 6 holes in it ha.
 
You can do pretty anything with it.

I've o-zoned around 4 cymbals so far (for various reasons - mostly to 'get rid' of cracks, and one time just for the fun of it). And a few holes won't even have a big impact on the sound. The holes need to be large enough or you'd have to make a good number of holes, even the sustain/level wouldn't drop too much. And o-zoning a cymbal doesn't automatically make it better sounding.

Alternatively, you could cut it down. The bell should sound fine - bells sound rather good even with so-so cymbals. Or leave some more rim around the bell so you'd have a large bell/mini splash - great per se or stacked (what about operating stacked cymbals with your foot? like some do with ribbon crushers). Just keep in mind that cutting a cymbal down will considerably alter the cymbal tension so it would tend to sound less 'round' and a bit harsher. In this case some re-hammering and/or lathing would be a good idea. (I don't have any experience in this regard and also no lathing tools.)
 
Hey Arky, great work... If you ever get chance to post some sound samples of the newer bells and o-zoned cymbals I'd be really grateful as your previous samples sound great on my SPD-SX. Thanks again for the earlier samples.
 
Ever made mini hats with these?
Sure, tried it a few times. But...

1) It's efficient if both cymbals have about the same diameter (for some more 'real' hihat playing feel) although if you're only operating the mini hihat with your foot, any mismatch in diameter will work, maybe with the splash sounds being less effective/impressive.

2) Cymbals that have been cut down tend to have thicker edges than they would normally have (after the lathing process). So they don't exactly behave like hihats when you press them together. Also, if you use pretty small mini-hats (like 2 bells) the splash sound might be somewhat cool but the overall level is rather low.

Rather at the beginning of my cymbal DIY period I cut down a pair of Zildjian ZBT hats from 14 to around 11.5 inches (from memory) and those weren't spectacular after the mod (well, were they before the mod? haha).

What I did most recently was creating a (practice) hihat with those 5 splashes which I just made. Those are ok for foot operation but too small in diameter for useable hihat sounds when played with sticks. Their level is significantly reduced, too - which is fine for practice purposes.

I also created mini-hats with 2 Meinl Thomas Lang Generation X signature crashes/rides. Those are relatively thin and the mini-hats were pretty low in volume. Again, from a practice perspective that's a good thing. I've sold them though.

Overall I think all those DIY cymbals are fun tools and there's enough ways to be creative with them. But apart from cutting them down to the bells anything 'in-between' is going to sound 'experimental', from ok to unpleasant (because of the disturbance of cymbal tension and improper edge thickness). Ultimately any cut-down cymbal should get some after processing to explore their full potential.
 
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