Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

If you don't like it, don't read it. Nobody forced you to click, or to get offended for no reason. Why do you feel that other people who can handle a bit of disagreement shouldn't be able to discuss this in the dedicated "off topic" section of the forum?

I'm not personally against discussions like this, but when you start talking more and more about things like this, you start looking at the forum differently. It is a drumming forum after all. I'm not offended, but I would hate to see a forum this good get a bunch of people on just wanting to talk politics and argue. People are arguing about politics all over the internet, and some people want to relax and read about drumming and other topics they are interested in. Sure, I can ignore a thread, but every time a new thread like this comes up, someone else gets an idea of starting another politically-based thread. There have been more than one threads recently closed because of a couple of political threads, some didn't even start that way, but that was how they ended up. I can get on these threads and argue all day, but I don't want to give others bad impressions of me because I always want to argue. I would rather this forum stay peaceful rather than turn into a bunch of debates.

Understand it is nothing personal, but many people like this site and this forum. Why let new members look at this and see arguing and politics? This really will not make this site more useful or enjoyable.
 
I see what you're getting at, but the argument doesn't hold water for me in the "off topic" section where it's assumed things will be a bit different and less moderated. If a politics discussion came up in the general forum, it would be moved or removed, I'm quite sure.
 
I've just heard that the off topic section was not for politics or religion. If they are allowing that then I am fine with it being in an off topic section rather than in the drumming parts. I don't want to come across as a loser or someone hating politics. I get into plenty of arguments about politics, but I would rather argue politics with someone face to face rather than online. I'm just giving my opinion. Of the moderators are fine with it and nobody is offended, then just go ahead and I won't bother y'all anymore.
 
But if we can talk about this stuff in a civilised and genial manner (as opposed to arguing) then that says something good about drummers.

Bear in mind that the arts and intoxicants have been close bedfellows forever. There is a reason for that ...
 
But if we can talk about this stuff in a civilised and genial manner (as opposed to arguing) then that says something good about drummers.
Unfortunately, I think he may be partly right in that it's really hard for most people to speak on these subjects without getting emotional in some manner. Even so, I consider a lot of you my friends, and I'd hate to not have the ability to discuss sensitive matters with people who's opinion I may actually value.

True rule offenses should be dealt with the same regardless of the thread context. Intentionally abusive name calling, for example, should be met with admin action in this thread, or any other.

Bear in mind that the arts and intoxicants have been close bedfellows forever. There is a reason for that ...
Beyond the obvious answer that a "head change" makes you think and create in new ways, I have also been thinking that a lot of musicians/artists are by nature "outcasts" from the white-collar rest of the upper class world that values monetary production over creativity and outlet.

I've also noticed that outcasts tend to think on their own more where societal rules are concerned. Myself included. I fully support laws that protect against willful harm to others. At the same time, I have never respected any law which is basically a rule against potentially harming myself, or anything resembling thought/speech-crime. I truly value my personal freedoms, and I think we need to be more honest about the way we use government to try and enforce one set of values, instead of using government to protect the freedom to have your own values as it should be.
 
Unfortunately, I think he may be partly right in that it's really hard for most people to speak on these subjects without getting emotional in some manner. Even so, I consider a lot of you my friends, and I'd hate to not have the ability to discuss sensitive matters with people who's opinion I may actually value.

True rule offenses should be dealt with the same regardless of the thread context. Intentionally abusive name calling, for example, should be met with admin action in this thread, or any other.

Beyond the obvious answer that a "head change" makes you think and create in new ways, I have also been thinking that a lot of musicians/artists are by nature "outcasts" from the white-collar rest of the upper class world that values monetary production over creativity and outlet.

I've also noticed that outcasts tend to think on their own more where societal rules are concerned. Myself included. I fully support laws that protect against willful harm to others. At the same time, I have never respected any law which is basically a rule against potentially harming myself, or anything resembling thought/speech-crime. I truly value my personal freedoms, and I think we need to be more honest about the way we use government to try and enforce one set of values, instead of using government to protect the freedom to have your own values as it should be.

Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out. History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.
 
Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out. History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.

Yes, and since we are all exactly the same (with the same genetics, gifts, same proclivities and upbringing) then our creative and recreational lives should work exactly the same for all of us. Right?

"Different strokes for different strokes" is a truism, not a platitude.

It is also a cop out to be fearful of exploring your boundaries and potentials due to arbitrary rules set down by people with agendas. Then again, a lot of people cop out in life and that's okay. It's very hard to live an impressive life given that we are basically confused sacks of gooey protoplasm with a short life span held together by a relatively fragile covering of skin. The miracle is that anyone gets their shit together.
 
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Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out.
You didn't think about this for very long before you wrote it, or just didn't convey what you meant. Research and exploration show that our ancestors used various intoxicants and poisons to alter their minds and expand creative thought going back much farther than was ever recorded intentionally. Intoxication is a part of our history, and what we are today. Every single thing we do, experience and think changes the structure of our brains and therefor our thought patterns and neural pathways.

History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.
I can completely agree. Attempting to argue that intoxication has no creative value, however, seems to be coming from a somewhat mis-informed viewpoint.

When we enforce our laws in ways that can literally destroy everything a person has worked for, the laws we choose to enforce should not pertain to preventing personal harm to self... Back more specifically to the issue of cannabis; considering that the laws do not prevent cannabis use or production(and fail to do so at huge taxpayer cost), it is more than clear to me that the illegality of cannabis causes more total harm than the substance itself.
 
I'm tempted to set a up a Google Calendar with bets on it. We could have two bets. 'Date of Registration' and 'Date of Discovery'. We could even have three if we include 'Date of Subsequent Re-banning'.

Any takers?

and maybe a section for next name?

I think he'll comeback as "reallyshouldtakeahint"!
 
and maybe a section for next name?

I think he'll comeback as "reallyshouldtakeahint"!

The worldwide breaking record of being banned by a single member within a year? I make it the 8th ban this time round...Glen must love this place as much as I do.
 
You didn't think about this for very long before you wrote it, or just didn't convey what you meant. Research and exploration show that our ancestors used various intoxicants and poisons to alter their minds and expand creative thought going back much farther than was ever recorded intentionally. Intoxication is a part of our history, and what we are today. Every single thing we do, experience and think changes the structure of our brains and therefor our thought patterns and neural pathways.

I can completely agree. Attempting to argue that intoxication has no creative value, however, seems to be coming from a somewhat mis-informed viewpoint.

When we enforce our laws in ways that can literally destroy everything a person has worked for, the laws we choose to enforce should not pertain to preventing personal harm to self... Back more specifically to the issue of cannabis; considering that the laws do not prevent cannabis use or production(and fail to do so at huge taxpayer cost), it is more than clear to me that the illegality of cannabis causes more total harm than the substance itself.

Agreed, intoxication is part of what people do and changes what they do. Sometimes, intoxication may produce insights that wouldn't occur otherwise, as can be done with exercise, meditation or other intense experiences. But that change is neutral - seeing an intricate florentine pattern in a carpet on LSD, for example, might inspire someone to draw or play total garbage as much as great music.

Drugs aren't a substitute for practice, study or experience. For every useful insight they produce, they produce poor judgment. And I'm not even getting into the whole aspect of risks to life and safety or showing up on time - people who aren't stoned tend to have better work habits.

I support cannabis being illegal, a minority view on this board but a very mainstream view everywhere else. The more drugs we make legal, the more people will use them.
 
Agreed, intoxication is part of what people do and changes what they do. Sometimes, intoxication may produce insights that wouldn't occur otherwise, as can be done with exercise, meditation or other intense experiences.
So what makes one "experience" more valid than another?

But that change is neutral
I don't understand what you mean. What is neutral about the way intoxication changes someone's thoughts? Perhaps you meant a different term?

seeing an intricate florentine pattern in a carpet on LSD, for example, might inspire someone to draw or play total garbage as much as great music.
This just makes me think you really don't have a clue about the subject we're discussing here. LSD is one of the most powerful mind-altering substances ever created or discovered.

Drugs aren't a substitute for practice, study or experience.
I certainly never said they were. They aren't. You're not going to be a master artist or musician as the result of mind-alteration. What you might get, however, is a change in thought pattern which leads to creativity which might never have been spurred in a normal state.

For every useful insight they produce, they produce poor judgment.
Nonsense. People use intoxicants responsibly and with excellent judgement all over the world, every day. The freedom to make our own choices, and mistakes, along with their consequences is what this country should be about. If I can use guns responsibly, it is childish and unfair to take them away from me because some other idiot shot someone when they were not acting responsibly.

And I'm not even getting into the whole aspect of risks to life and safety or showing up on time - people who aren't stoned tend to have better work habits.
Irrelevant to this discussion. People who aren't drunk tend to have better work habits too. And finally, people with poor work habits get fired, as they should. It is irresponsible to come to your employment intoxicated in any way.

I support cannabis being illegal,
From what I can tell, there's no real logic in your view here, which is what I've been trying to get at.

a minority view on this board but a very mainstream view everywhere else.
This is not true, especially where cannabis is concerned. Increasingly people are seeing exactly how stupid it is to fight a "war" on a natural plant; a war we have no hope of winning, or even making a dent in. People are waking up and seeing that really, it's just not a big deal. It is easily comparable to alcohol, and proven to be far less dangerous in nearly every conceivable way.

The more drugs we make legal, the more people will use them.
Why is that your business to tell them what they can do to, or with their own body? Why is it that you hate the idea of people being free to live how they want? I shake my head when I see someone kill themselves with whiskey, but I would die to support their right to do so.
 
The idea of seeking transcendence through meditation and art is a noble ideal. But not everyone is ready to seek self actualisation - half the time we're flat out dealing with money, work, relationships, philias, phobias and whatever bats are in our belfry at the time.

So, Matrin, it seems you are saying that untogether people should be denied transcendent experiences until they've sorted out their problems and become capable of achieving inner peace and Zen states through the "natural" means of discipline and control? Yes?

However, if they never manage to get their heads together then it's a matter of "oh well, they missed out on peak experiences in this life" - too bad. There's always McDonald's and Warner Bros for the hoi polloi.

Peak experiences are often turning points in our lives, through insights that allow us to open up psychological blockages. Western society is a little squeamish about peak experiences - I guess too many snake oil salesmen will do that. While science is only touching on inter-dimensional realities, they appear to be accessible via the non rational part of our mind (the bit that creates great music).

Thing is, you can tell people that there is power around us we can tap into if we open up and let ourselves, but until you've experienced it, it sounds like fantasy. I've had a couple of peak experiences in the past decade that have blown my conception of reality to smithereens. The first was in a very drug free period for me during a lunch break, the second was at around 3am in bed after an "insomnia cure" scoob.

The second one was easily the most powerful. I Googled the sensations and found that what I experienced was far from rare, often triggered by meditation rather than drugs. Yet I, a non meditator, got a glimpse.

Of course, drugs can also be the straw that breaks the camel's back. That's why the taboos are so harmful - people are always going to use drugs and the more they understand how they work and the difference between use and abuse, the less problems we'll have (and the more benefits from their use as "mental medicine"). As Watso said, some users have managed to work out how to use rather than abuse, despite the relative information blackout. (Thankful for the web).

Yet so often we are discouraged from talking about it, as though it will corrupt young 'uns, which is lazy, patronising and ineffective. I was kept in the dark by all the adults around me when I was young and look how I turned out :)

The sooner adults are treated like adults, the sooner they will start behaving like adults.
 
I grew up in the most hippy, stoner environment you could ever imagine. I turned out OK. I'm only broke because the field I work in tanked so badly in 2008.

My sister doesn't do any drugs. She raised three girls who all went to college and graduated. She's got a teenage boy too. We'll see how he turns out.

I have a benign brain tumor that I live with. It was huge and caused terrible headaches in my 20's. Luckily there was a drug that helped me shrink that tumor. Now it doesn't bother me anymore and I haven't needed that pill for four years now. I've used that tumor as a way to get my Medical MJ Card a couple years ago because, as you know, California allows that. I leave it at home and only have some at night time. It's kinda ridiculous with all the stigma attached to a simple herb. But on the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous how many 20 something guys and gals I see going in and out of those MJ clinics. All these young people with all their "medical problems". When I was that age, I just smoked it because I wanted to, not for any medical reason. It's all kinda ridiculous because alcohol has caused so many tragedies. My own family is testament to that fact. Luckily my parents were never heavy drinkers. Moderation is the key and I am glad to have grown up in such a liberal environment. I got to see all the grown-ups make all those mistakes and I found out how not to live ones' life.
 
I grew up in the most hippy, stoner environment you could ever imagine. I turned out OK. I'm only broke because the field I work in tanked so badly in 2008.

My sister doesn't do any drugs. She raised three girls who all went to college and graduated. She's got a teenage boy too. We'll see how he turns out.

I have a benign brain tumor that I live with. It was huge and caused terrible headaches in my 20's. Luckily there was a drug that helped me shrink that tumor. Now it doesn't bother me anymore and I haven't needed that pill for four years now. I've used that tumor as a way to get my Medical MJ Card a couple years ago because, as you know, California allows that. I leave it at home and only have some at night time. It's kinda ridiculous with all the stigma attached to a simple herb. But on the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous how many 20 something guys and gals I see going in and out of those MJ clinics. All these young people with all their "medical problems". When I was that age, I just smoked it because I wanted to, not for any medical reason. It's all kinda ridiculous because alcohol has caused so many tragedies. My own family is testament to that fact. Luckily my parents were never heavy drinkers. Moderation is the key and I am glad to have grown up in such a liberal environment. I got to see all the grown-ups make all those mistakes and I found out how not to live ones' life.

I largely agree with you. While I don't think pot should be legalized, if it is, it's not going to be the end of the world. I am glad you are able to use cannabis to help your medical condition. I tihnk tit does have legitimate uses as a prescribed drug.
 
So what makes one "experience" more valid than another?

I don't understand what you mean. What is neutral about the way intoxication changes someone's thoughts? Perhaps you meant a different term?

This just makes me think you really don't have a clue about the subject we're discussing here. LSD is one of the most powerful mind-altering substances ever created or discovered.

I certainly never said they were. They aren't. You're not going to be a master artist or musician as the result of mind-alteration. What you might get, however, is a change in thought pattern which leads to creativity which might never have been spurred in a normal state.

Nonsense. People use intoxicants responsibly and with excellent judgement all over the world, every day. The freedom to make our own choices, and mistakes, along with their consequences is what this country should be about. If I can use guns responsibly, it is childish and unfair to take them away from me because some other idiot shot someone when they were not acting responsibly.

Irrelevant to this discussion. People who aren't drunk tend to have better work habits too. And finally, people with poor work habits get fired, as they should. It is irresponsible to come to your employment intoxicated in any way.

From what I can tell, there's no real logic in your view here, which is what I've been trying to get at.

This is not true, especially where cannabis is concerned. Increasingly people are seeing exactly how stupid it is to fight a "war" on a natural plant; a war we have no hope of winning, or even making a dent in. People are waking up and seeing that really, it's just not a big deal. It is easily comparable to alcohol, and proven to be far less dangerous in nearly every conceivable way.

Why is that your business to tell them what they can do to, or with their own body? Why is it that you hate the idea of people being free to live how they want? I shake my head when I see someone kill themselves with whiskey, but I would die to support their right to do so.

Everyone thinks there are some drugs that should be illegal, even some derived from a natural plant, like heroin. I just include a few more drugs in that category than you do. Unless you think heroin should be freely available in society.

By the way, you say I "don't have a clue" but I in turn find your views to be well-reasoned. I just don't agree with them, for reasons of my own, which I happen to think are more valid than yours. That means I respect you and your views - even if you don't reciprocate.
 
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