Drummers in Web Design

I don't have a problem with Flash if it's embedded in the HTML. However, I really dislike big splash pages that take time to load and also sites that are nearly all Flash.

Band and designer sites tend to use Flash more than most because it conveys a hip, up-to-date image. However, full-on Flash sites are a bit of an own goal since search spiders can't readily index them. It can work in certain situations where you have a brochureware site that's accessed only by personal referral.
 
Just to add to this discussion on Flash.

I'm a very impatient web-user. If it isn't there NOW then it isn't there. I have a fast connection at Uni and so this helps ease my impatience.

With that said, if I'm looking for a band website out of vague interest (it can be almost any band, bear in mind - local or otherwise) and a flash 'loading' bar emerges from the depths, I immediately click off. I just can't be bothering with most flash sites. There are a couple of exceptions - but usually Flash is done in a hideous, ghastly and vulgar way. If there's a Flash option I don't mind. Some sites have the 'HTML' choice alongside Flash and that is fine. But if they're shoehorning flash, off I log.
 
Just to add to this discussion on Flash.

I'm a very impatient web-user. If it isn't there NOW then it isn't there. I have a fast connection at Uni and so this helps ease my impatience.

With that said, if I'm looking for a band website out of vague interest (it can be almost any band, bear in mind - local or otherwise) and a flash 'loading' bar emerges from the depths, I immediately click off. I just can't be bothering with most flash sites. There are a couple of exceptions - but usually Flash is done in a hideous, ghastly and vulgar way. If there's a Flash option I don't mind. Some sites have the 'HTML' choice alongside Flash and that is fine. But if they're shoehorning flash, off I log.

Same here. There is a perception in some circles that Flash is "more professional". Yet most web users visit sites to be interested, not entertained - and if they want to be entertained, they will want to choose when, how and with what they are entertained.

One pet hate of mine (while we're on the HTML Hell theme) is when music loads automatically with a page and no controls. One minute I'm happily surfing while playing an MP3, next minute it's a cacophany. Sites with Flash ads that start making noise at you generally earn a backspace too.
 
One pet hate of mine (while we're on the HTML Hell theme) is when music loads automatically with a page and no controls. One minute I'm happily surfing while playing an MP3, next minute it's a cacophany.

+1

Have learned the fast MUTE button 'finger dance'.
 
I think Flash was asking for trouble by naming themselves "Flash"- they should have chosen something like "substance" instead. Anyway, it sounds to me that a lot of complaints are about sites that are noticeably done in Flash-some of my favorites are ones I had to look in the source code before I even realized they were in flash. I must say these anti-flash opinions are not reflected in the choices many of my peers' websites. I should mention that we're mostly jazz musicians in a big city (Chicago), so there is less concern with reaching people with dial-up modems as they represent an insignificant piece of our demographic. Elitist? Well, yeah, that's what jazz often is, frankly.

Another debate is mp3 players- autostart or not? (I'm talking specifically about musician sites-one should NEVER autostart music on non-music sites IMHO) I know a lot of visitors complain when music starts automatically, but look at it from the musicians side. A lot of time and money is sunk in these sites with the hope of selling some music, and why risk someone not finding, or choosing to click the player? Is there an implied agreement when a visitor visits a musician site that he/she agree to deal with an automatically starting mp3 player? I just found a site that automatically starts the mp3 player but offers the opportunity to turn it off. Unfortunately it reloaded and turned back on on every page! That's definitely annoying.
 
I'm nearly 18, I have spent 5+ years teaching myself the art of Photoshop, Indesign, and Illustrator. I got html down fairly quickly, and just recently I have started to learn some php. I recently starting programming as well; I'm about half way through a VB2008 tutorial book.
 
Another debate is mp3 players- autostart or not? ... I know a lot of visitors complain when music starts automatically, but look at it from the musicians side. A lot of time and money is sunk in these sites with the hope of selling some music, and why risk someone not finding, or choosing to click the player? Is there an implied agreement when a visitor visits a musician site that he/she agree to deal with an automatically starting mp3 player?

I see your point but if someone's visiting a music site, they are most likely hoping to hear some music. If you have an MP3 player in a visible spot like the MySpace players then visitors can choose to play the music at their own convenience rather than being kind of force-fed. It's hard to imagine someone going to a music site and then leaving because they had to clck the mouse to hear the music. Easier to imagine them leaving because the page is taking ages to load an MP3 and then suddenly springs a song on you.

A programmer Linux-freak friend of mine with Jakob Neilsen-style web values (sadly died of cancer earlier this year) used to always tell me to let the users have control. I agree.
 
What we've got to get down is some moderation. Flash can look great in small doses in the right places - but using it for a whole site is asking for trouble. I've seen some very good flash-based sites that work smoothly, don't take long to load and look great - but I've also seen a LOT of flash-based sites that take ages to work and then you have to wait for each screen to load - which takes another wait. That IS frustrating.
 
Ohhhh good thread! I've been a professional developer for over six years, and studied computer science too. I'm a total geek really.

Anywho, there's nothing wrong with using lots of flash, javascript and all that jazz, but you gotta check your site in a screen reader and make sure everything regresses nicely to pure text. Otherwise your site is gonna be rubbish for SEO and accessibility. That's the golden rule, check your site in every popular browser and in a text browser, like lynx.

Anywho, have of you lot heard of Django? Hands down the best web framework out there, though Symfony isn't too shabby either, but it's written in php unfortunately, which pales in comparison to python.
 
Im doing webdesign and internet for some time now. Did everything for www.wecantdance.nl (which is my own project) and I work as an Interaction Designer/Usability Guru at a big agency in the Netherlands. We do a lot of Flash things there.
I agree that Flash might not be the tool for every website. In fact I don't encourage using Flash for everything on the web. I know that everything can be done but that doesn't mean everything SHOULD be done in Flash.

However, if you want to give your visitors a special experience that can't be done with plain xhtml and javascript then Flash is the only option left.
Im not sure how internet is priced in the USA and what typical connections are there but in the Netherlands, broadband is fast and very cheap. Flash websites with lots of interaction, flash video, animations etc. are normal here and usually load fast if optimized.

Google has the ability to index text in Flash movies, just like a human would read them. I don't see any issues with SEO nowadays. If you make up a good embedding page, a good no-flash page and give Google what it needs, then you will be found.
However, I agree that there are still issues which are usually caused by developers not using frameworks like GAIA that make flash behave like separate webpages with direct linking options.
 
Welcome Santi and Therma! It's good to have some true geeks on the thread to round out some of the "old school" designers. Another issue with Flash, as a friend reminded me, is that there is no support on iphones, and may not be for quite some time. Not that animation looks so great on a tiny screen anyway, and I assume you need a separate style sheet for mobiles anyway, but that would cut out a full-flash site, unless you also created an entire html site, too. (right? I haven't looked into all this much, to be honest.) For now, I'm going to build my site mostly html, maybe with a little flash content, with alternative images if flash isn't installed, which is pretty rare on most computers.

I do have friends who are interested in all-flash sites, for whatever reason, so I'm still going to learn how to do it. I briefly looked at gaia, that looks really cool! I'm curious how much flexibility that offers. I'd have to mess with that a while, but in the long term it looks like a time-saver.

I also know very little about python. Everyone stresses the importance of knowing php, it seems. How do those compare? Is it worth learning for simple tasks like compile email lists, simple cms', etc.?
 
Hi Eric,
Sorry for the late reply here. I don't check the other boards here often. But thanks for the welcome :)
Gaia is very cool. We use it a lot at our agency and developed a lot of major websites with that framework (Pepsi and Toyota spring to mind). I saw a keynote about it. It's pretty sophisticated. I like the idea, however never worked with it personally (as I don't do much flash). But they love it at my agency.

I really stress the importance of knowing PHP. The reason is pretty simple; with a very basic understanding, you can create almost anything you want. My own knowledge of php is very little, yet as long as there are databases involved I can make whatever I want. Mailinglists, simple cms'es etc. are really good things for PHP.

Besides that, if you are looking for a simple CMS to start with and to get your hands around PHP I highly recommend Wordpress. Its basically a blogging tool but with the introduction of templates, which can be assigned to different pages, and extensive category options, it's a very good CMS. I prefer it much more over drupal (which is a bit more advanced) or joomla (who is a real b*tch I really like to forget about…).

I'm currently porting the we can't dance website to Wordpress. Most of it already works within a few hours of work (I could actually use my old CSS files etc.) Wonderful system and highly recommended!

Flash btw, will be supported on the iPhone I believe. Adobe announced something that makes flash work on the iPhone with CS5. So it might be a special version or something else. I dunno.

On the HTML side, you always need separate stylesheets for mobile versions. Even better are mobile subdomains which are sparser in content. Depending a bit on the platform you want to support and what information you have to offer.

Cheers!
 
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