Should drummers call themselves musicians?

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Just check out "Boléro" from Maurice Ravel or if not convinced check
"Concerto for 2 pianos, percussion and orchestra" from Béla Bartòk,
and many, many, many more.

NOW : IMAGINE ALL THIS GREAT MUSIC WITHOUT PERCUSSION!!!

It needs many years of studying to be a good musician and be able to
play this percussion parts, and it needs also a lot of preparation and
experience as a musician to make all kind's of music sound good as a
drummer who play's "only" the Drums.
 
I think its more important that other musicans call drummers musicans....
 
Drummers are musicians, but most players of instruments are not.

While guitar players "grow on trees", drummers are few and far between, but the percentage of decent drum players is probably about the same as on other instruments.

As a guitar player in the countryside of a small country I know far to well how hard it is to find any drummer to begin with and having to put up with someone who simple doesn't cut it. Basic music and listening skills are the usual problem. Enjoy the 5 minute, one dynamic money beat song with strange tempo variations.

A drummer who approaches playing music and songs with the same intention as other musicians is a musicians. If not, to me, he's just someone who hits drums.

I don't know if there are translations in other countries, but here in Norway it's become sort of a common dexcription to differentiate between the hitting drummer and the playing drummer, which offcourse means different things to different people.

The drums are also different enough from other instruments that it's really hard for other musicians to appreciate what's truly involved. It's simply a matter of "Does he/she feel good to play with?", with no deeper understanding at all like they can have with other tonal instruments.

So the comments seem to partly be based on bad experiences with drummers musicians find it hard to create music with and partly based on the fact that other musicians are unable to look at musical challenges from the drummers perspective.

Offcourse, at the higher levels of musicianship there shouldn't really be much of a difference at all.
 
For me the question is: Are you are drummer or are you a guy that happens to own a drum set?
 
I can't find the exact thread/post at the moment, where larryace (Uncle Larry) wrote down very interesting thoughts about why drummers are not always considered musicians. Would be a great read for all who keeps asking themselfs/others this very question.p

I know the one you mean, Bush (or do you prefer Maniac?) ... if I remember rightly, Larry's comment came from frustration at seeing other drummers at local jams - drummers who bash all the time, who don't listen and just shoehorn their licks into the songs, who step on the vocals and soloists, whose tempo is uneven etc.

He was talking about players who never got past their noob garage drummer habits (guys with drum sets). Bear in mind that Larry started out as a garage player himself (as did I). Over time he gave up his bad drummer habits, got in demand, and became the drumming equivalent of a vehement reformed smoker or ex-junkie evangelist ;-)

Most people question the bona fides of garage-y drummers - likewise garage guitarists, bassist and singers, though history set up drummers as an easier target.

As Earthrocker said, early last century the old guard classical people had enough trouble accepting jazz as a legitimate musical form let alone drummers, who at the time only played a basic timekeeping role and frequently were the least musically educated member of the band. There was also racism and embarrassingly odious snobbery in some who thought of drumming as a primitive black man activity and that white classical music was inherently superior.

My history's a bit dicey (understatement) but I think Chick Webb the first drummer last century to get the general public respecting drummers. Gene and Buddy progressed that line and drew great crowds. I understand that the intelligent, educated and refined Max Roach played a role in turning people's heads around about drummers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvdU5R7ywQ4

Some classical boffins believed that drums were not a musical instrument but merely noise makers. At the time drums did have more of a sound effect role in classical rather than being intrinsically tied to the flow and structure of the music as they are in jazz and other modern music.

Nowadays, of course, noise-making can be a legitimate musical pastime. Duncan and I have talked about this stuff a bit and he pointed me to instances where noise is used in mainstream music and listeners (including me) barely even notice, apart from digging it.

People love to say "that's not music" about music that challenges their conservative and fearful world view, eg. Cage, Stockhausen, free jazz (some say it's not "jazz"). My Dad said it about The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix.

Duncan also put me on to the notion that what distinguishes music from non-music is intent. So music need not travel up and down the stave, nor even be capable of being written with conventional notation. If you intend to make music, then you're making music. Whether it's any good or not is another matter.

I don't think gatekeeping is logically valid - "not a musician", "it's not music", "it's not jazz", "it's not rock'n'roll". It's whatever the performers intend it to be and from there others can judge its merit or lack. On one thread Matt Smith referred to Muzak as an "artificial musiclike product", a parsing that I like a lot. Sincerity (or its lack) is a defining factor.

It's hard to imagine this question coming up in places with rich rhythmic traditions like Africa, Asia or South/Central America.
 
Some classical boffins believed that drums were not a musical instrument but merely noise makers.

Oh, so that's the proper term for [name and relationship withheld to protect the delicate snob]!


If you intend to make music, then you're making music.

You had me up ’til that bit. For your consideration, I offer any keen kid beginning to learn to play the violin. Music? Not so much, I would suggest.
 
I am a musician. I play drums, cymbals, and a few other percussion instruments. I can play guitar a little, but why would I want to do that if I can play drums instead? Peace and goodwill.
 
... if I remember rightly, Larry's comment came from frustration at seeing other drummers at local jams - drummers who bash all the time, who don't listen and just shoehorn their licks into the songs, who step on the vocals and soloists, whose tempo is uneven etc.

?!? ...I didn't know Larry came to my gigs.

Some classical boffins believed that drums were not a musical instrument but merely noise makers. At the time drums did have more of a sound effect role in classical rather than being intrinsically tied to the flow and structure of the music as they are in jazz and other modern music.

A drummer is a musician, of course, and drums are instruments indeed.

But what about some "drummers" who don't have any "musical" background, they don't know and don't understand note value, time signature, rudiments or the application of the sol-fa syllables to a musical scale or to a melody, they can only "bash" the drums , but they can't discuss or explain anything about music, technically, harmonically or melodically, are they still called "musicians"? I'm not talking about beginners, some drummers have been playing like that for years, and although they're obviously not professional they still gig around locally.

Is it OK to just bang the drum to a pulse, not knowing what you're doing (even if it sounds good) and having credit for it? My guess is that our "reputation" lies with those type of drummers, which are seen by the other instrumentalists as non-musicians because of the lack of any kind of education in music.


...getting close to Pythonesque bad taste Henri, & I love it!!!!!!

I was only imaging your post Andy, you called Doc a "naughty girl", lol ... for me it was enough to get to the drawing board :)
 
I was only imaging your post Andy, you called Doc a "naughty girl", lol ... for me it was enough to get to the drawing board :)
& a very funny 'toon it is too :)

Re: the OP's question: Along with the singer, if we screw up (& I mean just missing one backbeat), the audience notices much more than minor screwups from other musicians in the band. Us getting our job done, is probably more taken for granted than with other players. If a singer nails that note, if a guitarist nails that solo, they attract far more praise than the drummer who nails the groove.

Another "reason" for the devaluation of our role, is that most non musos, & some musos too, think they can play drums. I mean, "how hard can it be" eh?
 
Fish abuse aside, I know some guitar players who shouldn't call themselves musicians. Ergo, it's not the instrument that counts, it's how you use it.
 
i know various instrument players who deem themselves "musicians" who probably shouldn't. and i'm pretty sure i'm one of them! :)
 
You had me up ’til that bit. For your consideration, I offer any keen kid beginning to learn to play the violin. Music? Not so much, I would suggest.

It depends. If the child is attempting to play a song then it's music - just music that's played without much understanding or physical control.


But what about some "drummers" who don't have any "musical" background, they don't know and don't understand note value, time signature, rudiments or the application of the sol-fa syllables to a musical scale or to a melody, they can only "bash" the drums , but they can't discuss or explain anything about music, technically, harmonically or melodically, are they still called "musicians"? I'm not talking about beginners, some drummers have been playing like that for years, and although they're obviously not professional they still gig around locally.

You already know the answer, Henri, but I'll pretend you don't :)

That, of course, is what Larry was talking about at the open jam nights. Really, there's nothing great about being a musician since a hack is still a musician - a hack musician as opposed to a hack golfer (who is still a golfer) or a hack painter (who is still a painter).

As DocWat said, there are some pretty poor guitar, bass and vocalising hacks out there too. Whatever, people find their own level and have fun with that. I see no reason to insult them by claiming that what they do doesn't exist - if we don't like it we can always just "change the channel".
 
Maybe I've taken the old joke too seriously, but I do see a distinction between operating in the realm of rhythm-only vs. operating in the realm of melody and harmony (which still includes rhythm). Copyright law also sees a distinction and music degrees aren't awarded to drummers who only know drums.

If drummer is worried about not being considered a musician, then drummer should consider learning another instrument.
 
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...If a singer nails that note, if a guitarist nails that solo, they attract far more praise than the drummer who nails the groove.
...

Maybe it's the circles I follow, but I find more praise about recorded drum solos than any other instrument (perhaps besides vocal).

I mean, a cool guitar riff/solo is cool, but when a drummer lets loose, usually everybody watches.

My (then) 8 yr old nephew went to a Rush concert just to see Neil Peart play a solo. Watching the rest of the band was just a bonus.
 
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