Pop Music in General

Rosanna was a pop song. I am currently teaching that groove to about 6 students.

I realised some years ago that most people only like music. Some simply tolerate it while others give it no thought at all. What we as musicians miss is the understanding of the public's general lack of interest.

Sometimes too I am tired and just want to hear something light. Mostly I listen to world music and it is amazing. There's a great deal of choice. But you know, many musicians I have known have had the most limited taste of any people I have met. If a style does not fit into their idea of what is cool, most just close their ears. Especially the least experienced musicians.

I'm no great fan of Rosanna but, like most drummers, I was impressed with Jeff Porcaro's version of the Purdie shuffle.

I think the breadth of our tastes stems from exposure, personality, peer group shared values, and our hunger for music.

I see music like I see food. It's one of the joys of life and something to enjoy, so I love a LOT more music (and food) than I hate. There's even more music that I don't feel passionate about either way. For the most part I don't see much reason to actively dislike any music; it's just music written for people who aren't like me. As long as it makes someone happy, cool. I draw the line at Tie A Yellow Ribbon Round The Old Oak Tree, though, because it traumatised me in childhood :)

Doctor S, IMO the problem isn't that musicians are prostituting their art for record companies so much as there are people who want that music and record companies are always second-guess the majority's taste and looking for the safe option.

So there's always been this unhealthy feedback loop between the companies and the public that inevitably spirals down further into the LCD. Let's hope the web keeps putting a spoke in the works to open the scene up a bit.

Pop stardon doesn't always work out:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/william-shakespeare/2009/08/24/1251001841077.html

One bad decision by an ambitious young man who loved singing based on the advice of his manager and look how it turned out.
 
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Selling your soul to the devil is almost impossible when pop music producers have all but eliminated human drummers altogether. It is interesting to hear hi hats chattering like machine guns at 1/32 a few times, but these guys seem to be obsessed with perfect timing with no soul.
 
Selling your soul to the devil is almost impossible when pop music producers have all but eliminated human drummers altogether. It is interesting to hear hi hats chattering like machine guns at 1/32 a few times, but these guys seem to be obsessed with perfect timing with no soul.

I think you're getting the problem there mixed up. Human drummers still do play on a lot of records, but the production methods use ensure 'perfect' quantisation. With that said, I don't think there's any problem with electronically-generated rhythm, in fact I do it all the time. What's lacking is an artistic aesthetic.
 
I think you're getting the problem there mixed up. Human drummers still do play on a lot of records, but the production methods use ensure 'perfect' quantisation. With that said, I don't think there's any problem with electronically-generated rhythm, in fact I do it all the time. What's lacking is an artistic aesthetic.

Maybe somebody can better quantify it, but what I have heard on local pop stations (which I hear alot with teenage kids), is about 100% electronic rythm sections. There again, this probably gets into the definition of what pop music is, which is subjective even in this thread.

I know we have debated this subject before, and yes, I am aware of the "click" and how it is used extensively. I really have no problem with striving for perfect timing. What I am opposed to is the production line, mechanized sound of electronic drums. Programming can be alot better if done by drummers, but I can hardly believe what I hear coming across the radio waves these days is being programmed by a drummer by trade. Your recordings sound quite nice, it's what's coming out of the main stream that I cannot believe is passing as drums. It certainly is void of rythm, and I think techno-pop is the only application suited for it, but that, of course, is my opinion.
 
I think you're being a little close minded on the issue, with the greatest of respect. 'Real' drums didn't power Kraftwerk, but they were a fantastic band. As usual, it's not the tool, it's the application. As I sit here right now I'm actually programming some electronic rhythms. Electronic drums don't necessarily need to be programmed by drummers to be well-made, just look at DJ Shadow. The problem is a lack of invention.

When I go and listen to Thom Yorke's solo album (The Eraser) I am awe struck by his drum programming. The same is said of Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails. It does sound mechanical, but in these cases that's the point. In some instances, the programming is actually aesthetically post-digital, so it becomes a parody of that programmed sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIK7084f8FM

That's one of my favourite programmed sequences. In fact, the only thing there that isn't programmed is the voice. But if you really listen hard enough, you'll understand that there's something incredibly organic about this programming. It sounds mechanistic, yet human. The digital aspect of the production has actually been subverted by letting in sound glitches and errors.

The problem, as usual, is a lack of inventiveness.
 
I think you're being a little close minded on the issue, with the greatest of respect. 'Real' drums didn't power Kraftwerk, but they were a fantastic band. As usual, it's not the tool, it's the application. As I sit here right now I'm actually programming some electronic rhythms. Electronic drums don't necessarily need to be programmed by drummers to be well-made, just look at DJ Shadow. The problem is a lack of invention.

When I go and listen to Thom Yorke's solo album (The Eraser) I am awe struck by his drum programming. The same is said of Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails. It does sound mechanical, but in these cases that's the point. In some instances, the programming is actually aesthetically post-digital, so it becomes a parody of that programmed sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIK7084f8FM

That's one of my favourite programmed sequences. In fact, the only thing there that isn't programmed is the voice. But if you really listen hard enough, you'll understand that there's something incredibly organic about this programming. It sounds mechanistic, yet human. The digital aspect of the production has actually been subverted by letting in sound glitches and errors.

The problem, as usual, is a lack of inventiveness.

Well, Kraftwerk has been one of my favorite bands, since the mid seventies, and they would not be Kraftwerk without programmed drums. I guess I should really qualify my distaste for electronically programmed instruments. What gets me is the thought of music producers replacing human drummers, not because it is the artistic call for the song or music, but only because they want to save money or not have to deal with another ill-tempered flaky musician. IOW, my reservations to electronic programming are really limited to pop music, and pop music only, and I take back my techno-pop only statement, as there are other genres that work well with it.
 
That's exactly what I was getting at. Unfortunately a lot of the time, what you hear is actually played by humans, but ends up sounding like machines because of the processing, a striving for 'perfection'. I could go into depth here, but I don't think it's necessary.
 
It has got to the point that in some genres, metal being a good example, post-production editing of drums is so extensive that you can achieve almost exactly the same effect by programming the drums using all samples. That's a big shame as far as I'm concerned.
 
It has got to the point that in some genres, metal being a good example, post-production editing of drums is so extensive that you can achieve almost exactly the same effect by programming the drums using all samples. That's a big shame as far as I'm concerned.

Some bands are more organic-sounding than others. If I don't much like something I listen to something else; there's still plenty of good music out there, old and new. I guess I listen to a lot of old stuff because I'm old :(

Drum machines made a huge mark on the scene from the 80s. In terms of precision they have set the bar higher but in terms of feel, lower. Still, I find that music with less organic-sounding drumming is often less appealing music anyway so I don't care if the songs loses out through having mechanistic percussion.

I might be a biased, though, since I was growing up just before drum machines (as replacement for a drummer) came on the scene.
 
Polly,

The best drum programmers can make drum machines have feel. Aphex Twin is a really good example of that. On the other hand, the lack of feel is often the reason they are used. I just think there are different tools for different purposes and drum machines are one such tool. Right now I'm doing more programming than playing.
 
I totally agree with this. I think the more time you spend with a drum machine, the better and more organic it sounds...and with live drums it's the opposite, the more time you spend editing them the worse they end up sounding.
 
Fair nuff. I haven't programmed since 1987 with a TR707 so no doubt things have come a long way since then. Heh, maybe the songs I'm thinking of that sound machanistic are the real drummers quantised and the ones I think have good feel are machines?

The 707 was frustrating in that you had two snares - one that sounded normal and an 80s big sound. Each of those snare sounds had two levels - normal and accent. Not good for ghost notes. Bummer with the ride too. I did a track where I wanted 16ths on the ride and it came out like white noise. Then I tried for a full-on impossible (for me) fusion 12/8 thing and it came out like a load of clutter http://www.sangrea.net/rijidij/mp3/Grea-10-Three_sisters.mp3 - a mess but I guess it was something I had to get out of my system.

Programming's fun once you have your system set up but learning how to drive the machines and setting up your system is not for the faint-hearted IMO.
 
I usually find a lot of the limitations are the appeal of those early systems. I recently got hold of a cheap 70's synth (Jen Pianotone J-600) for very little money. It's very limited, but that's most of the fun. The real trick I find with the old hardware is to actually accept the limitations and stop trying to mimic a 'real' drummer. To me, that defeats the very point of using it.

I've been making some odd glitchy stuff this evening. I'll upload a portion of the rhythm track.

This is just something I've been fiddling with for the three hours or so. I started it this afternoon. It will be fleshed out into a full song eventually.
 

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Some of the best drum programming I have ever heard was (of course in the pop genre, again) on Chicago 18 (mid 80s on a Roland R8, I believe). Of course, having a drummer the caliber of Danny Seraphine programming those drums made all the difference in the world. But even with the old Roland samples they had back then, his effort towers over the crap they pass as programmed drums on most hip hop and pop singles coming out today.
 
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Hey MFB, that's a pretty eerie rhythm track.

The real trick I find with the old hardware is to actually accept the limitations and stop trying to mimic a 'real' drummer. To me, that defeats the very point of using it.

So true. I'd decided when I started sequencing to make music that didn't try to ape the real thing but, as I went on, the temptation to try was too much to resist :)

Most of the time I went for more airy music sans drum sounds, althout later I tried a different track, doing something that sounds obviously computer-generated, but at the same time apes organic music.

http://www.sangrea.net/rijidij/mp3/Grea-bazo-gonda.mp3

It was more successful than the other song, and would have been better if I'd had the chance to add extra detail at the end. Unfortunately, before I could do that I "loaned" all my synth and recording gear to our guitarist at the time. He promptly went interstate, got an addiction and hocked it all. That was in 1987.

He sent me an Xmas card 10 years later apologising and promising to buy me a new rig. That was the last I heard of him.

With "friends" like that ...
 
That's more like it! That track is definitely of the time, but you can tell where you were coming from with the rhythm and synth work. Actually, it's pretty good. Have you gotten hold of Aphex Twin's 'Ambient '85-'92' album? I think you might like it.
 
But even with the old Roland samples they had back then, his effort towers over the crap they pass as programmed drums on most hip hop and pop singles coming out today.

Agreed... the hip-hop beats are usually either over-simplified and odd or would require 4 hands and 4 feet to play on a kit.
A lot of rap and hip-hop have these akward snare/bass beats they put in them that not only don't sound good but are very immature beats. It probably goes along with the genre since those same "artists" sing about their hoes and busting caps in people...
I think the point that someone made earlier is the best I've seen in this thread, it all comes down to the maturity of the intended audience... hannah montana and boy bands are great music to 13 year old girls... but the more emotionally and mentally mature audiences should be listening to stuff more age-appropriate. but really when it comes down to it even a lot of bands that play music for older audience still play crap instead of good music.
 
That's more like it! That track is definitely of the time, but you can tell where you were coming from with the rhythm and synth work. Actually, it's pretty good. Have you gotten hold of Aphex Twin's 'Ambient '85-'92' album? I think you might like it.

Thx MFB. Yes, the rhythm track in Bazo Gonda sounds much nicer. Three Sisters was overly ambitious and I would have needed a much better machine and also spent plenty of time time with the subtleties to make it work.

I hadn't heard Aphex Twin before and just found Heliosphan on YouTube. I would have liked the beat to be more laid back for late night listening but it's all well done.

Just checking out some more of their stuff now and it's pretty creative. Ta for the recommendation :)

Umm, LT and Doctor, I must confess that I quite like a lot of the programmed hip hop beats I hear ... just not so keen on the topping.
 
Agreed... the hip-hop beats are usually either over-simplified and odd or would require 4 hands and 4 feet to play on a kit.
A lot of rap and hip-hop have these akward snare/bass beats they put in them that not only don't sound good but are very immature beats. It probably goes along with the genre since those same "artists" sing about their hoes and busting caps in people...
I think the point that someone made earlier is the best I've seen in this thread, it all comes down to the maturity of the intended audience... hannah montana and boy bands are great music to 13 year old girls... but the more emotionally and mentally mature audiences should be listening to stuff more age-appropriate. but really when it comes down to it even a lot of bands that play music for older audience still play crap instead of good music.

They are usually feeble attempts at syncopations that are very elemental in structure (nothing like the intricate poly-rythmic stuff that used to come out of Motown) and the sound samples are often comical and cartoonish. Snoop often has a human drummer - compare some of his music to say, Lil Wayne. I believe that most drum tracks on the current pop music scene are made by people who have little to no musical background, and are indicative of cost cuts driven by producers. If they want to drive the quality of music completely in the crapper, so be it - the whole pop music industry has been heading that way for quite awhile.
 
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