Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Are you saying that if one is not portorican or Cuban , one cannot play Afro Cuban music?
It's like saying " if you're not black , you can't play jazz".

And yes, writing down a clave pattern take 2 bars (8 beats) and it is much more difficult to improvise with 2 limbs when the ostinato is based on a long phrase like that .
I can do a lot of improvising with kick Nd snare while doing a dingaling on the right hand and hat on 2 and 4.
When I try to improvise or just copy what I hear while using a left foot clAve , not so much. Got a loooong way to go and I bet it will be the same for most people.

Heck no. I'm an Irish Ukrainian (one generation through Canada) boy from Cincinnati, OH. I was fortunate to come to this music through these folks coming to town about 20 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IR-HUElPfw

Long story short. I learned by playing one conga, bell, pair of claves, gua gua, or cajon at a time. The interplay of that with the other members of the ensemble is where it's always been at for me.

I can't remember the intellectual concepts that I used to get started, because they aren't clave. Clave is clave. I've never seen or heard anyone get there from counting and mapping it out without putting the time in to just listening to it until it becomes part of you.

That's not different from any other style of music. If it's just an intellectual exercise, then that's what it's going to sound like.
 
Actually there are subtle differences between three two claves. Depending on the time signature and how they are swung, they can be 3/4, 12/8, 4/4, 2/4 etc.

Are you talking about clave actually changing - Son, Rumba, Yambu, the various 6/8 bells - or what is going on around it, or how it is written on a piece of paper?

The idea of clave based music is just that. It is based on clave. The idea being that you tap your foot to clave as you would tap 4 for your average Rock or Pop song.
 
Are you talking about clave actually changing - Son, Rumba, Yambu, the various 6/8 bells - or what is going on around it, or how it is written on a piece of paper?

The idea of clave based music is just that. It is based on clave. The idea being that you tap your foot to clave as you would tap 4 for your average Rock or Pop song.

Yes the clave changes, they super impose over a 4/4 sometimes. Other times not so much.
 
Yes the clave changes, they super impose over a 4/4 sometimes. Other times not so much.

Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hours of listening to AfroCuban music and it's derivatives (not to mention what I've humbly played myself) and I've never heard that.
 
I think I'm gonna focus on some Afro Cuban stuff. I've been working on right hand clave while reading left hand "melodies" and good god it's hard. I think I'm gonna get to the point where I can read melodies with both hands while playing clave with either hand and then move on to cascara. That should keep me busy for the next couple months.
 
Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hours of listening to AfroCuban music and it's derivatives (not to mention what I've humbly played myself) and I've never heard that.

This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).
 
I think I'm gonna focus on some Afro Cuban stuff. I've been working on right hand clave while reading left hand "melodies" and good god it's hard. I think I'm gonna get to the point where I can read melodies with both hands while playing clave with either hand and then move on to cascara. That should keep me busy for the next couple months.

As this is written this is just an interesting isolated exercise and has nothing to do with AfroCuban music. You are taking it out of context.
 
What I enjoy doing playing salsa cha-cha-cha and rumba is to try to replicate what I hear with just me on the drumset most of the time it means cascara on the right hand, conga pattern on the left hand (rim click and rack to ) tumbae on the kick (with the 1st note longer) and foot hat on 1-3 or 2-4 or splashing on 1-3 . That's what I enjoy doing and the trick is to get all those percussionists (limbs)together with the correct pattern for each and then doing each with the correct accents/dynamic compared to the other limbs.

I also did some salsa dancing and noticed that there aren't that many salsa bands around (too expensive because so many members).
If one quarter can duplicate a whole band (for most of it) why not ?
 
This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).

Were talking semantics. The clave is not changing. They are different claves. It says so right on the page. Above each staff is the name. It does not say "Son clave played in 6/8" it reads "6/8 clave" Different bell patterns are not called claves but fall under that definition and act as such.

Rumba (no "h," Rhumba is something altogether different) clave is what you would play with Guaguanco (and some other rhythms) and as an aside it was once played with Son clave. As is Yambu played with Son clave in Havana but has it's own clave in Yambu Matancero.

If you want to study clave as an intellectual pursuit David Penalosa is your man. His book THE CLAVE MATRIX can be considered the standard on the subject. Note that he includes "...a prodigious discography of 10 pages. Also included are 2 CDs with 117 tracks of examples." as he knows that you are not going to get there without using your ears.

Here's something.

https://www.amazon.com/Rumba-Quinto-David-nmn-Peñalosa/dp/1453713131

But what is wrong with it? Although it is awesome and allows you to more easily see and hear some things separately, it is out of context. Columbia is the macho, who's the baddest, strut your stuff rhythm. With fun stuff like knife play, doing fast steps over two machete with blades turned up, and balancing on rum bottles. Their is no singing, and also no dancing for the quinto player to interact with.

Now just in case anyone wants to know what to get me for Christmas, here's a link to Moperc's website. ;-)
 
What I enjoy doing playing salsa cha-cha-cha and rumba is to try to replicate what I hear with just me on the drumset most of the time it means cascara on the right hand, conga pattern on the left hand (rim click and rack to ) tumbae on the kick (with the 1st note longer) and foot hat on 1-3 or 2-4 or splashing on 1-3 . That's what I enjoy doing and the trick is to get all those percussionists (limbs)together with the correct pattern for each and then doing each with the correct accents/dynamic compared to the other limbs.

I also did some salsa dancing and noticed that there aren't that many salsa bands around (too expensive because so many members).
If one quarter can duplicate a whole band (for most of it) why not ?

As you economize something, there is a tipping point where it tends to lose its appeal.

Salsa example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFjuvB7Gfo

Yeah. Those sports teams cost a ton of bread. Maybe we could just replace them with one guy with puppets. I'd watch that.

NOT.
 
A quartet with conga, piano, drums and bass/vocals is not the same as a one man band ;)

Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.
 
Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.

Where I am (Raleigh/Durham ,nc) they have salsa socials about every Tuesday, wed, and sat and Sunday (thst's 5/6 times a week) and a salsa band maybe once a year. They are just too expensive. The local dance instructor/DJ just plays some classic tune and voila !! Story of live music.

But the bigger the band , the harder it is to book.
 
Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.

I've been to plenty of five/six piece bands. Timbale, conga, keys, bass, singer + cowbell.

Only the larger bands can afford to have dedicated singers, often times the timbales and conga sing back up. The cowbell singer can swap out to bongos, as can the conga. The conga player usually also plays guiro(torpedo). Singer isn't necessary either, could be a wind instrument.

I've also seen a number of four piece salsa bands, usually conga, bass, keys, guitar singer.
 
This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).

Well no, not really. That page is not accurate. There is no 3/2 or 2/3 in Cuba….there's just rumba or son clave. Also, folkloric styles don't really use a 6/8 or 4/4 clave; instead, clave is felt in "fix" (see Spiro [2006] for a definition) depending on the song.

Last: it's "rumba", not "rhumba".

The OP asking what is more difficult is interesting. I've seen several swing groups in Havana that just can't get the feel. It just depends on what you grew up with and what is more natural to you. A strong 2 & 4 isn't something that is easily felt by many Cubans.
 
I've been to plenty of five/six piece bands. Timbale, conga, keys, bass, singer + cowbell.

Only the larger bands can afford to have dedicated singers, often times the timbales and conga sing back up. The cowbell singer can swap out to bongos, as can the conga. The conga player usually also plays guiro(torpedo). Singer isn't necessary either, could be a wind instrument.

I've also seen a number of four piece salsa bands, usually conga, bass, keys, guitar singer.

Playing the bell on the right parts is a big part of the bongocero's job. The bigger the band, with more percussionists, and the later the musical style the more time spent on bell.
 
Whoever has capacity plays the bell. If there is no bongocero and it's just someone playing congas and a kit player, I'm happy when another musician can grab a bell if their hands are free. Same goes for cha-cha; if someone else grabs guiro to help fill out the parts, more power to 'em.
 
I guess it depends on your goals. I had to learn Afro-Cuban drumming and it's freaking hard!

I'm a jazz player, and I play a lot of Latin Jazz, which is usually fusing jazz with a latin rhythm (samba, bossa nova, rumba, et cetera). But I don't play much actual Latin music, and when I do, I have to woodshed like crazy to get my Latin chops back up.

If you are looking to play pure Afro-Cuban music, you'll find that it's very hard. For starters, you may have to play a different pattern with each limb, so you limb independence is going to be critical.

A basic Son or Rumba, would have the drummer playing the HH on 1 and 3 (or left foot cowbell clave if you have it), playing the tumbao pattern on the bass drum, playing a cascara with the right hand, and using the left hand to comp. These patterns are very specific too, and you have to know if the band is playing 2/3 or 3/2 (although in Cuba, they don't think of it that way)... You can't really fake it with this music, or just keep time; you are expected to play these patterns as the song is built around the specific rhythms. I've seen/heard arguments break out on stage between drummers and/or percussionists over what the clave is for a specific song... you cna't overstate how important these specific rhythms are to the music.

Brazilian music is a little more forgiving as their styles are a little more free and sync up with jazz a little better. Brazilians also take the rhythms less personally, and look for an overall "groove" rather than specific patterns.

In the same way that many jazz groups in Europe and the US, play jazz with a Latin-ish feel, many Latin groups in Cuba play Afro-Cuban with a jazz-ish feel... so it does go both ways.

Obviously, the more you learn the better off you are, but you have to figure out where you want to go. If you just want to spend a couple of months learning Afro-Cuban styles, and aren't trying to gig with Afro-Cuban groups, then it's a great exercise to open up your mind to different patterns, and work on limb independence.

If you are still learning jazz and that's your thing, then maybe work on some Latin jazz rhythms and patterns, at first. Then you can dive deeper into Afro-Cuban if you want.
 
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