How does Ludwig Keep Prices down?

BobC said:
I have two wrapped DW sets that I haul around all the time with no cases or covers. I just carefully put them in the back of the car and off I go. I'm not worried about them at all. Both sets look presentable after hundreds, and in the case of the Ultra Oyster White set, perhaps a thousand or more gigs. I have never been a Ludwig fan, to be honest. I always found old Ludwigs to be very harsh sounding drums, and they got pretty bad in the late
60's and into the early 70's insofar as quality, back when Ludwig was churning them out night and day to meet demand.
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Fair enough. It took me two DW kits to figure out I'm not a big DW fan - they sound great when other people play them. They just don't sound that great to me, considering their price. Although I will admit to having played an early DW kit from the late 70s/early 80s when their shells were made by Keller or Jasper, those sounded great. This was that time when their hardware was meant for working musicians too, not rock stars with roadies.
 
Artstar said:
Whom I believe is mostly owned by these suckers :

http://www.westonpresidio.com/OurTeam/tabid/55/Default.aspx
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Very interesting, they are invested in both Fender AND Guitar Center. Furthering the story of how in bed the two companies are.

On on that note:
http://intermediaries.wordpress.com/2012/11/06/what-is-next-for-fender/
Weston Presidio, an investment firm actually owns nearly half of the company,
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http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/20/why-fender-pulled-its-ipo/
Weston Presidio paid $57.8 million for its stake in Fender back in December 2001.
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Although that doesn't explain why Gretsch drums are so darn expensive, given how much they outsource, and how little of the company is even owned or operated by the Gretsch family anymore.


Read further my friend :



FRED W. GRETSCH - 1985
Determined to return the company to family ownership, it was in 1985, when Fred W. Gretsch, the great-grandson of the company founder, made good on his promise. The Gretsch Company was once again in capable family hands.

Operations moved to Savannah, where the revitalized company began to offer new, vintage styled, Gretsch guitars and classic Gretsch drums. The success of the new products was immediate and Gretsch instruments were quickly back in demand.

Today there is much to celebrate as the Gretsch Company has truly come full circle now spanning over 120 years and four generations!

Dinah and Fred Gretsch with their 11 grandchildren
Dinah and Fred Gretsch with their 11 grandchildren!
DINAH GRETSCH
A career in banking, computer software design and ownership of her own credit bureau prepared Dinah for her far reaching responsibilities at Gretsch. Dinah is Executive Vice President for Fred Gretsch Enterprises and handles all computer and accounting functions of the company as well as artist relations.



What a difference two years makes!
A GRETSCH FAMILY TRADITION - 2002
July 2002; The Gretsch family recently celebrated Fred's Birthday and another year continuing the tradition of "That Great Gretsch Sound!" Here, Fred and Dinah are joined by their eleven grand children for the annual celebration. Wow, what a difference 2 years makes!

RICHARD GRETSCH, SR. CELEBRATES 92ND BIRTHDAY!
Richard Gretsch, Sr., grandson of Friedrich Gretsch, the founder of the Gretsch Musical Instrument Company, recently celebrated his 92nd birthday. Although Richard never worked in the family business with his 2 brothers and father, he has always been a great supporter of their efforts and success.
 
GRUNTERSDAD said:
Although that doesn't explain why Gretsch drums are so darn expensive, given how much they outsource, and how little of the company is even owned or operated by the Gretsch family anymore.


Read further my friend :



FRED W. GRETSCH - 1985
Determined to return the company to family ownership, it was in 1985, when Fred W. Gretsch, the great-grandson of the company founder, made good on his promise. The Gretsch Company was once again in capable family hands.

Operations moved to Savannah, where the revitalized company began to offer new, vintage styled, Gretsch guitars and classic Gretsch drums. The success of the new products was immediate and Gretsch instruments were quickly back in demand.

Today there is much to celebrate as the Gretsch Company has truly come full circle now spanning over 120 years and four generations!

Dinah and Fred Gretsch with their 11 grandchildren
Dinah and Fred Gretsch with their 11 grandchildren!
DINAH GRETSCH
A career in banking, computer software design and ownership of her own credit bureau prepared Dinah for her far reaching responsibilities at Gretsch. Dinah is Executive Vice President for Fred Gretsch Enterprises and handles all computer and accounting functions of the company as well as artist relations.



What a difference two years makes!
A GRETSCH FAMILY TRADITION - 2002
July 2002; The Gretsch family recently celebrated Fred's Birthday and another year continuing the tradition of "That Great Gretsch Sound!" Here, Fred and Dinah are joined by their eleven grand children for the annual celebration. Wow, what a difference 2 years makes!

RICHARD GRETSCH, SR. CELEBRATES 92ND BIRTHDAY!
Richard Gretsch, Sr., grandson of Friedrich Gretsch, the founder of the Gretsch Musical Instrument Company, recently celebrated his 92nd birthday. Although Richard never worked in the family business with his 2 brothers and father, he has always been a great supporter of their efforts and success.
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That doesn't change what I have said. That is merely the history of the Gretsch family, which still does own the name, and as I already said, runs the 5-6 person team in Carolina.

Gretsch has never made their shells. It's pretty common knowledge they used Jasper shells until Jasper went out of business, and they now use Keller shells on the USA made stuff.

And outside of the the manufacturing of the USA lines, everything else is handled via a license with Kaman Music Corp, aka KMC, which is now owned by Fender.



Look at http://www.gretschdrums.com/
And go to the bottom, where it says:
© 2014 KMC Music, Inc.
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Click and you go to:
http://www.kmcmusicorp.com/

Read further:
http://blog.gretsch.com/gretsch-drums-celebrate-120th-anniversary-with-gala-celebration/2003/11/
On June 13th, Kaman Music joined Fred and Dinah Gretsch as they commemorated 120 years of “That Great Gretsch Sound” with a special celebration dinner at the Hartford Club.

As guests arrived, each was personally greeted and thanked by Fred and Dinah Gretsch. Following dinner, Kaman Music President, Bob Saunders spoke of the Gretsch/Kaman relationship
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http://www.gretsch.com/files/documents/gretsch-media-kit-v4.pdf
2000 Kaman Music becomes exclusive Gretsch drums worldwide distributor.
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http://www.kaman.com/news/kaman-announces-agreement-to-sell-music-segment/
October 29, 2007

Kamn
Kaman Announces Agreement to Sell Music Segment

BLOOMFIELD, Conn., Oct. 29 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- (Nasdaq: KAMN) Kaman Corporation announced today that it has entered into a definitive agreement to sell its wholly owned subsidiary, Kaman Music Corporation (KMC), to Fender Musical Instruments Corporation (FMIC) of Scottsdale, ...

KMC, which comprises the company's entire Music segment, owns Ovation Guitars, LP and Toca hand percussion products, Gibraltar Hardware, Genz Benz Amplification, Hamer Guitars, and is the exclusive U.S. sales representative for Sabian Cymbals, and exclusive worldwide distributor of Takamine Guitars and Gretsch Drums.
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http://www.drums-guru.com/Gretsch-drums.html#axzz2r3ZlBqgl
In 2000, Gretsch drums became more well known after signing a distribution deal with Kaman Music Corporation.

Kaman bought most of Gretsch's drum making equipment and the rights to manufacture their drums in February, 2007. This takes place now in the Ridgeland, South Carolina plant. The same employees have worked at this plant for the last 10 to 15 years and adopted the Gretsch ways of drum making.
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/benzingainsights/2012/07/20/fender-withdraws-ipo/

7/20/2012
with Fender describing itself as a “leading, global musical instruments company whose portfolio of renowned, music lifestyle brands brings the passion of music to life. Since the founding of our predecessor company by Leo Fender in 1946, we have built a comprehensive portfolio of brands led by the iconic Fender brand and other renowned brands such as Squier, Jackson, Guild, Ovation and Latin Percussion, which we own, and Gretsch, EVH (Eddie Van Halen) and Takamine, for which we are the licensee.”
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http://drumdetails.com/gretsch-drums/
I
n 2000 Gretsch signed a distribution deal with Kaman resulting in more global visibility
In 2007 Kaman purchased manufacturing rights and equipment to make Gretsch drums
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http://www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1491&Source=Search&txtSearch=Gretsch
Gretsch has long been associated with drums, though the late ‘70’s and ‘80’s were tough for them and almost finished the company off. In the nineties they got their act together and realised that making expensive US build drums was not the only way forward, so started (just like all the US manufacturers) to build cheaper kits to sell to the mass market. The first kits (again, just like everyone else) were not good, but with long established links with Far Eastern builders through the Kaman group who bought them, things started to come together really nicely.
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http://www.squidoo.com/gretsch-drums
In February 2007, Kaman purchased the right to manufacture Gretsch USA Custom and Signature drums. They also purchased the majority of the equipment used to make Gretsch drums. They now lease space from Fred Gretsch in his Ridgeland building. The drums are being made by the same people that have worked there for the last 10-15 years.
Fender purchased Kaman in 2008 so now they own the right to manufacture both Gretsch guitars and drums.
Today, Gretsch's top of the line drums (USA Custom & Signature Series) are manufactured in Ridgeland, South Carolina. While other less expensive lines are imported by Kaman from Asian-based drum plants.
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drumming sort of person said:
Premium prices? What are you talking about? Their prices are WAY more reasonable than top of the line Sonor or Yamaha PHX (and they sound better too). If you price out their satin finishes (least expensive finish for their USA Custom line) you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Yes,they are cheaper than those you mentioned...but they're still considered premium prices...as in top of the line,pro quality instruments.

Steve B
 
DrumEatDrum said:
That doesn't change what I have said. That is merely the history of the Gretsch family, which still does own the name, and as I already said, runs the 5-6 person team in Carolina.

Gretsch has never made their shells. It's pretty common knowledge they used Jasper shells until Jasper went out of business, and they now use Keller shells on the USA made stuff.

And outside of the the manufacturing of the USA lines, everything else is handled via a license with Kaman Music Corp, aka KMC, which is now owned by Fender.



Look at http://www.gretschdrums.com/
And go to the bottom, where it says:

Click and you go to:
http://www.kmcmusicorp.com/

Read further:
http://blog.gretsch.com/gretsch-drums-celebrate-120th-anniversary-with-gala-celebration/2003/11/


http://www.gretsch.com/files/documents/gretsch-media-kit-v4.pdf

http://www.kaman.com/news/kaman-announces-agreement-to-sell-music-segment/



http://www.drums-guru.com/Gretsch-drums.html#axzz2r3ZlBqgl


http://www.forbes.com/sites/benzingainsights/2012/07/20/fender-withdraws-ipo/



http://drumdetails.com/gretsch-drums/
I

http://www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1491&Source=Search&txtSearch=Gretsch


http://www.squidoo.com/gretsch-drums
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Interesting read. Thanks for that.
 
while the classic maple prices are reasonable, their snare prices have gone through the roof over the past few years. I remember back 15 years ago you could get a 402 new for 300$. Now it's well over 500$. I think part of the pricing is due to rep. People are more willing to over pay for a Black Beauty, than a classic maple kit.
 
Never heard of a gretch drum ever until just before christmas. (that's a lot of decades guys!) so no 'famous around the globe'. the drum shops are totally seperate from other music shops here (something about ripping people off) so they are getting less and less famous now! In three drum shops, I was the only person there for 30 minutes. in the middle of the day. I've never seen more than 2 customers in the shop in the last 10 years.

The new models in the shop round here look really cheap and nasty. I'm certainly never going near them!

I just saw a thin Ludwig snare that had a big split in the laminate. (it's sold already. they might have a glue machine at home.)

I've just seen a black TAMA snare (retro mounts. made in japan, 90 degree leaver action) and the rim around the top is bent/dented, by about 6mm, over about 10cm.

The only thing Ludwig in the shops here is 1 catalogue. and I was too scared to take it because 20 years ago they complained about me wanting to take a catalogue home.
THey Hide the Zildjian catalogue. they have 40 of those. I asked about those cymbols and he still didn't offer a catalogue. He just said 'get the one's you like to hit'.
 
They are pricy because they are building a stock pile of money from us.
then they can take this formula and set up the same shopping technique in other countries.
we're the cash cows funding there international ventures.
We have to become international buyers, and never use the local shop for purchases again!
Everytime we make a purchase, they're giving us a smack! Give them a 'miss' from now on!
They don't even have a stick to try the cymbals!
They have a guy who sit's behind the counter and the business doesn't care if he makes a sale or not.
they get their income from else where.

There are still porn shops in my town who are still trying to sell DVD's for between $30 to $70 each. that price has not change in the last 15 years. I've never seen anyone purchase them either!

Companies who own companies who own companies. they are all linked. there is no competition. You'll find the competitors might hold shares in the competition. My milk suppliers do/did.
P.s. the japanese are buying Jim Beam alcohol drinks. so when you get pissed they get pissed.
 
So...just this,learn to spell cymbal with an A,not an O,and go back on the meds.Your posts,are making less and less sense .How does the Japanese like of Jim Beam,shoehorn into the Ludwig business model.?

Steve B
 
drumhammerer said:
while the classic maple prices are reasonable, their snare prices have gone through the roof over the past few years. I remember back 15 years ago you could get a 402 new for 300$. Now it's well over 500$. I think part of the pricing is due to rep. People are more willing to over pay for a Black Beauty, than a classic maple kit.
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I don't recall the pricing back then, but the 402 typically goes for less than $500 these days (well, in the US anyway.) I also don't know the specific changes have occurred that undoubtedly have contributed to higher manufacturing costs. They're not the only company that charges more than they did 15 yeafrs ago!

But Ludwig is NOT a company that charges more because they think they can. It's the companies that don't have a long legacy, and have marketed and postured themselves, whose prices seem to be predicated on their created/peceived reputation. Ludwig doesn't charge what they do because they're Ludwig, The prices are derived from the costs involved in developing, manufacturing, distributing and advertising the products.

Bermuda

PS - re the 402 pricing, list back in 1995 was $492, and list as of 2013 is $745, an increase of a little more than 50% in 18 years. I don't know how that compares to the inflation rate, or other MI company or general merchandise prices.
 
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dreyn77 said:
we're the cash cows funding there international ventures.
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WTF - seriously?

Ludwig are competitively priced. When you buy a kit, you're paying for the total cost of running that company, & yes, a small percentage has to be a contingency for the future. I'd like to see you build equivalent quality drums for less, & maintain all the costs of a business in the process. All larger & most smaller manufacturers already save as much cost as possible by outsourcing parts production. How far do you want that model to progress before all you're left with is a badge & memories?
 
dreyn77 said:
They are pricy because they are building a stock pile of money from us.
then they can take this formula and set up the same shopping technique in other countries.
we're the cash cows funding there international ventures.
We have to become international buyers, and never use the local shop for purchases again!
Everytime we make a purchase, they're giving us a smack! Give them a 'miss' from now on!
They don't even have a stick to try the cymbals!
They have a guy who sit's behind the counter and the business doesn't care if he makes a sale or not.
they get their income from else where.

There are still porn shops in my town who are still trying to sell DVD's for between $30 to $70 each. that price has not change in the last 15 years. I've never seen anyone purchase them either!

Companies who own companies who own companies. they are all linked. there is no competition. You'll find the competitors might hold shares in the competition. My milk suppliers do/did.
P.s. the japanese are buying Jim Beam alcohol drinks. so when you get pissed they get pissed.
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lol
What do you do, hang around in there and keep track of how many people are buying porno DVD's?
 
Well, I just got my set of classic maple exotics, 8x12, 14x14 and 14x20, my favorite sizes. I don't like them as much as my old sonor kits, but they were much less expensive ( 1100 to the door used) in great shape, and will suffice until I can get enough cash together for another sonor kit. The drums themselves have quite a bit of bite and sustain, great for rock or loud gigs, came with clear emps on top, I put some clear ambassdors on the bottom. Good sound, not what I would call "great" , a bit brighter than I expected. I think for they price the ludwigs are a good deal, as mentioned previously the lacquer is not stellar, it is nice, the brisdeye looks great and it's got the older oval badges which I like as well. All in all a nice kit that will get plenty of use from me. Ultimately I'd like to get a medium beech sq2 in the same sizes and then a smaller 16x18 , 9x10 14x14 in medium birch with a vms kick. Right. $$$$$$$$$$$
 
dreyn77 said:
Never heard of a gretch drum ever until just before christmas. (that's a lot of decades guys!) so no 'famous around the globe'. the drum shops are totally seperate from other music shops here (something about ripping people off) so they are getting less and less famous now! In three drum shops, I was the only person there for 30 minutes. in the middle of the day. I've never seen more than 2 customers in the shop in the last 10 years.
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I hear that life in Mordor can be pretty isolated.
 
keep it simple said:
WTF - seriously?

Ludwig are competitively priced. When you buy a kit, you're paying for the total cost of running that company, & yes, a small percentage has to be a contingency for the future. I'd like to see you build equivalent quality drums for less, & maintain all the costs of a business in the process. All larger & most smaller manufacturers already save as much cost as possible by outsourcing parts production. How far do you want that model to progress before all you're left with is a badge & memories?
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Make sure it's a Mapex badge you're left with, then you could use it as a rudimentary shelter.

Sorry. Sorry. I couldn't help it...
 
pcastag said:
.... Ultimately I'd like to get a medium beech sq2 in the same sizes and then a smaller 16x18 , 9x10 14x14 in medium birch with a vms kick. Right. $$$$$$$$$$$
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You started this thread because you are used to buying kits that most people consider too expensive.

Not a slam, just an observation.
 
wildbill said:
You started this thread because you are used to buying kits that most people consider too expensive.

Not a slam, just an observation.
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Not necessarily, I've been looking at a lot of different brands lately, ludwig classic maples are cheaper than dw, gretsch, tama, pearl yamaha. Sonors are definitely expensive but that's not why Ludwigs prices caught my eye, I was looking first at their resale and noticed you could get an all maple made in the usa top of the line kit for 1000 or less. Not too many brands out there where you can buy their top of the line kit used at that price. Then I looked at new, much cheaper than almost any name brand, usually about the price of their second teir kits, I found that very interesting.
 
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