When does sound become music

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
OK it's very subjective. Like perhaps my loved one's voice is music to my ear. Sometimes things that one doesn't normally consider music is considered as music by others. Taking that a step further, can all sounds be considered music?
 
Tapping feet has nothing to do with this boundary. Many beautiful pieces of music are in free-time or at least in a time signature that does not fit well with foot tapping.

Personally, I don't see the point in distinguishing between the two. Art can be created in either 'category', and they go hand in hand.
 
You've been smoking, Larry :)
 
I don't know and I couldn't care less. If I like the sound of it, it's music to me. F*** the haters.
 
Awww. It's okay, Larry. Some day that noise you're making will graduate into real music!
 
I'm probably the worst person to answer this question because I hear music in washing machines , leaves blowing , trains going by , the traffic and horns of the NYC streets, car alarms, construction sites, .... pretty much everywhere

.... and music is only when people tap their feet ?

tell that to Ornette Coleman or Alexander Scriabin

...by the way uncle L... pass that this way you bone hog

uncle "L" ... the name has never been more appropriate
 
I think sounds can be musical. But music is more than sounds. There needs to be some information, some organized content, and possibly (but not necessarily) a rhythm or repeating pattern. There has to be a "this" versus "that" to communicate information. Ones and zeros. As opposed to a random or white noise content which has no information. There might be times where random or white noise is exactly what you want, but I'm just theorizing here. And I'm generalizing of course. But that, I think, is the main point to start this discussion from.

Here's an example. The percussionist in my band plays a guiro in our interpretation of Johnny Cash's "Big River". I keep telling him to play a repeating pattern, basically a zydeco washboard pattern. I'm playing a real simple one two one two thing, and the guiro fits nicely with that. But he tends to want to "solo" with it, where he starts playing on every sixteenth note. At that point, I think, what he's doing ceases to be a meaningful pattern of "information" and becomes noise. It clutters everything up, and doesn't add anything to the music. Problem is, as many times as I tell him this, he keeps going back to doing it. It totally bothers me, but bands are always a work in progress, so I'm dealing with it.

And now, telling that story makes me think of another question that fits into this discussion: when do sounds (music included) become noise? How's THAT for subjective?
 
Personal take here, but I think sound has to be organized in SOME way to be classed as music. Not necessarily organized with intent, but still...

Hell, I don't know. :)
 
Personal take here, but I think sound has to be organized in SOME way to be classed as music. Not necessarily organized with intent, but still...

Hell, I don't know. :)

I was thinking the same thing. Organized and coordinated, but that can't apply for everyone. Every sound we hear has a note. For example, toss a pack of smokes on a table, and it will have a note. Some people can actually hear that note (not me, but some people). So the point at which it becomes music is subjective. I think it becomes music when the drummer arrives (that was too easy).
 
But what about tone-deaf people who enjoy listening to music? What do they hear? More than just rhythm, I think - but what exactly?
 
But what about tone-deaf people who enjoy listening to music? What do they hear? More than just rhythm, I think - but what exactly?


I'm pretty sure someone who is tone deaf hears notes the same way someone who is not tone deaf hears them but they are just unable to perceive the differences in those notes enough to reproduce the pitches accurately
 
Of course I've been smoking, let's just always assume that OK? It's probably easier for me to say when I'm NOT smoking lol. How do you think I come up with this stuff lol?

But seriously...I love the sound of a bunch of seagulls on the beach, or even in a Wal Mart parking lot. (what is the deal with that?) No one is organizing anything, but yet it makes a sort of music to my ear. I think all sounds can be considered music by someone. Why does it have to be organized? We're talking sound waves here. They happen. Does it require somebody organizing them to be considered music? It shouldn't. Nature makes it's own style of music and to ignore that is dissing your Mom, IMO.
 
larryace;1243415 Nature makes it's own style of music and to ignore that is dissing your Mom said:
In the words of the immortal Joyce Grenfell, "I like to think we take Nature's gifts and make them even better."
 
No one is organizing anything, but yet it makes a sort of music to my ear. I think all sounds can be considered music by someone. Why does it have to be organized? We're talking sound waves here. They happen. Does it require somebody organizing them to be considered music? It shouldn't. Nature makes it's own style of music and to ignore that is dissing your Mom, IMO.

I didn't say someONE, but I did say organized. Nature IS organizing those sounds, the seagulls are organizing them.

Think of that as opposed to unchanging white noise. I can't imagine someone thinking that's music. Maybe they do, but I disagree with them. You can name a turd a steak, but it's still a turd.
 
OK then is there any such thing as an unorganized sound? If nature is organizing sounds and man is organizing sounds and producing them as a byproduct of living life, then everything is organized so therefore meets the criteria for music. Is that a valid statement? Not questioning you ID, your input just raises more questions.
 
I'm probably the worst person to answer this question because I hear music in washing machines , leaves blowing , trains going by , the traffic and horns of the NYC streets, car alarms, construction sites, .... pretty much everywhere

No see this is what I mean. This makes you the best person to answer this question. Because you hear the music. I've heard you say that before, and I believe the really great musicians can hear the music in random sounds. Like imagine sitting down at an instrument and trying to convey what a Manhattan street sounds like at noon on a Tuesday. Those random sounds can be an inspiration to attempt capture what life sounds like in NYC in 2014 for instance.
 
The short version of my view. If a sound gives you an emotional response, it is music.Yes, by that definition the sound of a lawnmower that wakes you up angry is, for that moment, music.
 
OK then is there any such thing as an unorganized sound? If nature is organizing sounds and man is organizing sounds and producing them as a byproduct of living life, then everything is organized so therefore meets the criteria for music. Is that a valid statement?

I would argue that nature is not organizing sounds, at least not using any typical definition of the word, something like: to arrange in a coherent form or purposeful structure. Certainly, that implies agency and intent. And I think that intent is at the root of art. I don't think it's possible to have art without intent. We can experience beauty without intent (a sunset, for example) but let's not forget that art doesn't have to be beautiful. We can also experience organization (a crystal lattice, for example), but there is no agency behind it and therefore no intent. Seagulls might "intend" to make a noise, but where is the organizational intent? Are they orchestrating their calls together for something other than a utilitarian purpose? If not, then I don't see organization.

I believe Zappa had the best take on this, mainly that art is all about the frame. The act of putting a figurative frame around something is what makes that something art. My point being that the "act of framing" is intent and there is no intent without agency.


Thus, if someone organizes noise and calls it music, then it's music. You and I might hate it, but it's music in its most basic definition. This includes a person who "hears something" regarding a washing machine. In this instance, the listener is the composer/artist. Consider it to be part of the Dada School.
 
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