Foam muffle rings redundant on quality kicks?

MadJazz

Silver Member
You know these:
http://images.static.steveweissmusic.com/products/images/uploads/popup/REM-MF-1008-00.jpg

They muffle the kick enough so you don't need a pillow. By keeping the kick empty, you don't lose volume. At least my empty kick with emad sounds like a cannon. So far so good.

Thing is, these foam rings fit into a plastic tray that makes direct contact with the bearing edges. Basically, it prevents the head from touching the shell. Are these rings actually worth putting on pro kicks? Do they reduce the kick to a generic sound, similar to an entry level kick?

Does emad suffer the same? If so, I don't see the point in investing in an expensive kick when it will sound similar to something much cheaper. The downside of emad is that the ring comes loose - I had to paste it with tape - and that makes me look into the old fashioned powerstroke3 with foam muffle.
 
If so, I don't see the point in investing in an expensive kick when it will sound similar to something much cheaper.

That, in and of itself, is a great question. When I see all these cats with $800 kick drums padded, muffled, and stuffed.....what's the point. Other than the kick matches the rest of the set, which hopefully is not in "full" bondage. But "to each, his own". Yeah, my thoughts are you can make "any" $800 kick drum sound like a $100 kick, with enough muffling added. The inverse is not true. The $100 kick will not usually compete "wide open" with a $800 kick.
 
That, in and of itself, is a great question. When I see all these cats with $800 kick drums padded, muffled, and stuffed.....what's the point. Other than the kick matches the rest of the set, which hopefully is not in "full" bondage. But "to each, his own". Yeah, my thoughts are you can make "any" $800 kick drum sound like a $100 kick, with enough muffling added. The inverse is not true. The $100 kick will not usually compete "wide open" with a $800 kick.

Because sometimes a gig or a studio session requires such muffling. Its not at the demand of a crappy soundman either. I have had engineers or artists I'm doing a session for request a more muffled kick that is quick and tame. Fair enough, its his song, its what he wants. Who am I to argue and say my kick sounds better empty?

Too many of us preach open kicks, unmuffled snares and toms. Sometimes the job just doesn't require such techniques.
 
They're not redundant...they're totally unnecessary! *Usually* when people fork out big money for a kick, they're not looking for the sound produced by a beginner kit with a muffle ring. While that sound might almost sound like the overly-produced kick sound you hear on an album, if you try to play that same kick with an ensemble, you'll lose the sound of the kick in an instant, because you're muffling all the sound and life out of it.

As for me, I don't put any huge amount of muffling in my drums. There's the occasional EMAD that my DW might sport, and the felt strips on my Ludwig bass drum, but those are intended to get specific sounds for specific gigs, and those drums still SING!

Those muffle rings don't sound anything like an EMAD, in my opinion...
 
Because sometimes a gig or a studio session requires such muffling. Its not at the demand of a crappy soundman either. I have had engineers or artists I'm doing a session for request a more muffled kick that is quick and tame. Fair enough, its his song, its what he wants. Who am I to argue and say my kick sounds better empty?

Too many of us preach open kicks, unmuffled snares and toms. Sometimes the job just doesn't require such techniques.

I don't find myself situations where I need to muffle my drums. Maybe that's just me, though. Recording engineers that I work with know that the full tone of a drum comes from an untreated drum, and if they want a tighter sound, they put a compressor/gate on the signal. My drum still sounds full and big, just tighter. The most I've had to do to treat my bass drum in a session was toss a small towel between the head and my pedal, and detune the reso head a little. It gave a "slappy" sound that I, personally, wasn't too pleased with, but as you say: if the producer or engineer wants it...
 
I tried the Remo Muffle rings once, Just once! That is all that I have to say about them! It's an SK II or nothing for me on the batter! I don't stuff or use anything on the reso either. Let the sound guy sort it out, That's his job! I had an engineer say to me once, " There is to much ring on the bass" I said, "Fix it" He did, and all was fine with the world! I think that these guys get lazy and they look for an easy way out from time to time. I don't want my bass to sound like a 60s recording!
 
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If you need to really dampen I'd go with the pre-damped head - Superkick if you need that more muffled sound, Powerstroke for a more modern sound, double ply with a felt strip for its vibe, wide open, etc etc. IMO the higher end drums sound better clean (as said elsewhere) but still sound good when treated with muffling.

What's right? Again, I say, what's right for the song? If I need to take the front head off my kick, lay a packing blanket in and put an RE20 a few inches in front of the drum, I'll do it. It's just music.

Or as has been said elsewhere: you can reduce resonance, but not add it. I would imagine the muff'ls are gonna just pancake against the head and give you an indistinct dead flap even on a nicer drum. If that's the sound you want (... ?) then no need to buy a nicer kit.
 
First of all, I don't like a kick wide open. It needs to be tight and deep. I don't see how you can achieve that fat tone without some muffling. I don't stuff my drums with pilows but a P3 sounds open without any muffling. Instead of adding a small pillow that will also lower the volume, I was thinking about that foam ring. The other option is an emad but like I said, the ring comes loose. The emad I have now on the 22 kick sounds huge and doesn't need extra muffling.
Then there's also the possibility of a heavily coated batter but I've never tried that.

Secondly, a kick doesn't cost 800$ here, it costs 1500€, that's three times as much. I'm talking about a 20" Yamaha absolute. I need to know whether ordering it is worth it.
 
Secondly, a kick doesn't cost 800$ here, it costs 1500€, that's three times as much. I'm talking about a 20" Yamaha absolute. I need to know whether ordering it is worth it.
You wanna take a $2400 drum, and muffle it to the point where it sounds like a typical Guitar Center floor demo kick. No, it's not worth it. I bought a Yamaha 20x14 marching bass of eBay, mounted Gretsch spurs on it, and put Powerstroke 3 heads on both ends, for under $200 total, and probably got a sound close to what your looking for.
 
You know these:
http://images.static.steveweissmusic.com/products/images/uploads/popup/REM-MF-1008-00.jpg

They muffle the kick enough so you don't need a pillow. By keeping the kick empty, you don't lose volume. At least my empty kick with emad sounds like a cannon. So far so good.

Thing is, these foam rings fit into a plastic tray that makes direct contact with the bearing edges. Basically, it prevents the head from touching the shell. Are these rings actually worth putting on pro kicks? Do they reduce the kick to a generic sound, similar to an entry level kick?

Does emad suffer the same? If so, I don't see the point in investing in an expensive kick when it will sound similar to something much cheaper. The downside of emad is that the ring comes loose - I had to paste it with tape - and that makes me look into the old fashioned powerstroke3 with foam muffle.


Those are way over kill for muffling a kick drum for anything other triggering.

PS3's fron and back and an Evans EQ pad would be plenty for most applications
 
First of all, I don't like a kick wide open. It needs to be tight and deep. I don't see how you can achieve that fat tone without some muffling.

Hmm...maybe get yourself a used CB 700 kit and a muffle ring then. Seriously...if THAT is the sound you're going for, then there's no reason to pass that much salad for an expensive kick. Your drum might sound tight and fat, sure, but chances are it won't cut through a group that well. Just sayin'...

So, I think you just answered your question for your case. If you can achieve that sound you're looking for inexpensively, there's no technical reason to spend the big bucks on a kit.
 
The only things that alter my bass drum sounds are the Evans EQ4 batter head, some creative tuning and the type of beater I use. I'm using the same batter heads on my 22" bass drums as I do on my 20" bass. I've tried other heads such as the Emad and Emad 2, including some Remo kick heads, but went back to the EQ4. When I get the batter head tuned to where I like it, a lot can be done with the resonant head to fine tune my sound. JAW gives me the boom in your face sound, where a slightly tighter head will give me a more punchy bop sound. A lot depends on the bass drum I'm using too.

Dennis
 
Just to add another angle to this thread, I carried out a side by side comparison a few weeks ago. My son plays a Pearl Vision maple kick & I play the same size Spaun Maple kick. He wanted to use the same heads as mine so we equipped his kick accordingly with an Evans Emad + small ring. Both kicks tuned exactly the same on batter & reso. The difference in depth and volume was very significant. Under such conditions, I can only conclude that the superior shell was responsible for the difference. The Spaun was tight, punchy & deep but with enough sustain to offer true bass. The Pearl offered a similar sound profile but with far less depth & volume.

I think a higher quality shell is worth the difference in cost but only if you're going to tune it correctly and not dampen the hell out of it.
 
That, in and of itself, is a great question. When I see all these cats with $800 kick drums padded, muffled, and stuffed.....what's the point. Other than the kick matches the rest of the set, which hopefully is not in "full" bondage. But "to each, his own". Yeah, my thoughts are you can make "any" $800 kick drum sound like a $100 kick, with enough muffling added. The inverse is not true. The $100 kick will not usually compete "wide open" with a $800 kick.

I agree. I see people stuff pillows, mattresses and refrigerators in their drums in a desperate attempt to destroy their sound. And it works!

I have exceptionally resonant drums, making them troublesome to tune. I have found all the control I need by using thick drum heads and careful tuning. The more resonant the drum, the thicker the head should be.
 
Just to add another angle to this thread, I carried out a side by side comparison a few weeks ago. My son plays a Pearl Vision maple kick & I play the same size Spaun Maple kick. He wanted to use the same heads as mine so we equipped his kick accordingly with an Evans Emad + small ring. Both kicks tuned exactly the same on batter & reso. The difference in depth and volume was very significant. Under such conditions, I can only conclude that the superior shell was responsible for the difference. The Spaun was tight, punchy & deep but with enough sustain to offer true bass. The Pearl offered a similar sound profile but with far less depth & volume.

That's what I was thinking too: cheap drums sound thin and a pro kick will sound fuller even when muffled. I'm glad you confirmed my thoughts. Still, 1500 euro for just one kick is steep. I don't think I'll be able to negotiate a better price.

I think a higher quality shell is worth the difference in cost but only if you're going to tune it correctly and not dampen the hell out of it.

Isn't emad equal to "dampening the hell out of it"?
 
The replies in this thread are hilarious. Too many damn snobs that obviously don't work enough to understand that muffling is okay. Its not always about super resonant drums that sustain for 10 minutes. Until they get some pro work, they will never understand.
 
The replies in this thread are hilarious. Too many damn snobs that obviously don't work enough to understand that muffling is okay. Its not always about super resonant drums that sustain for 10 minutes. Until they get some pro work, they will never understand.

Please explain your concepts to all of us newbies..

Dennis
 
Isn't emad equal to "dampening the hell out of it"?

Not in my book. "Dampening" a drum is more like throwing a pillow in it, touching both heads. When you don't get a nice "BOOOOOOM" out of it, you have successfully dampened or muffled or stifled a drum. I can still get a nice full sound out of a drum with an EMAD. Sometimes you need to choke a drum a little, like if you're in a very live room, but mostly you want to preserve as many overtones of the drum as you can, in my opinion and experience.


The replies in this thread are hilarious. Too many damn snobs that obviously don't work enough to understand that muffling is okay. Its not always about super resonant drums that sustain for 10 minutes. Until they get some pro work, they will never understand.


Hmm...sounds like one more drum snob! Welcome to the forum! I look forward to hearing about your "pro work" where you are called upon to completely fill your drum with 10 pillows. :D
 
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