Vinnie Colaiuta

I agree with April on this. Matthias, you're automatically out of the game when you say properly.I musically disagree with everything you wrote back to April. I bet Vinnie would too.

There is no "proper" in music. Are you going to tell me Steve Jordan is proper? Jack Dejohnette? Paul Motian? I can go on and on. I agree with April in the sense that you're putting all these rules on music as if it IS a sport. She hit it right on the head. Who are you to say who's expressing themselves properly? No one can say that and have a point. There are no rules in music, just like April said.

Did painter's "understand" Picasso? No. Did everyone love Picasso? NO. Was he a genius? Yes. To form an opinion on an art form, you do not have to understand what is going on. You only have to hear(or see) the outcome. In music we hear the outcome. Then decide if it strikes a chord with us, or not. If someone says they don't like Vinnie's drumming, it's a point of view that is different than yours. It's not because they don't understand something. It's almost as if you think the whole world should think like you. There are hundreds of thousands of musicians that prefer a different approach. Vinnie has one sound, and one approach. Just like other greats. Not everyone likes everyone.

I agree with you about April putting them all in one box. In reality though, these drummers are known for their physical abilities. So that does put them in the same arena. In my opinion, none of them have a particularly great feel, which is why I think they are not in music. The world of drum education is not the world of music. The same way Lewis Nash, Kenny Washington, Carl Allen and Billy Drummond are all in the same musical box of straight ahead jazz drumming. Sure they all do it slightly different, but that's what they do. The drummer's April mentioned in that box are all primarily clinicians. I understand what she's saying.

I also agree with her on best. Best applies only in a competition. Your music to language analogy is too literal. When speaking a language the idea is communication with another human being, so you have to be articulate and clean. If you're not, then you can't communicate. If this were the case in music, Elvin Jones would be musically illiterate. Steve Jordan would know only 4 words, and Jojo Mayer would have constant verbal diarhhea. Speaking an actual language and playing music are two very different things. They're only similar in the sense of conversation pertaining to jazz improvisation. But even then, you're actually creating words sometimes, and in a spoken language that would sound like gibberish. So again, it doesn't really apply.

I disagree on the point you made with regards to Indian music as well. There's a huge difference between a clinician at a drum clinic playing different meter's in each limb just for the sake of challenge and difficulty, and a musical culture that's 200 or more years old. That was just a silly comparison on your part. The rates and groupings in Indian music serve the music. They are organic, and were created for the purpose of serving the music. They do not stand alone.

April I totally agree with you. I feel that fanatical drum fans like Matthias are attempting to turn music into a physical skill with pre-set requirements for what is good. You have to have a certain amount of chops, you have to know every beat in every style, you have to play to a click, you have to, you have to, you have to...it's all BULL...The real artists in the art of music are much more open than this, and they create music. The most influential musicians of all time were all original, and did not have all of these required "skills" you put on music. They were creative and focused on music, not on who can play the smartest and fastest.

Matthias, even the way you categorize music is weird. Western pop? Most pop music in the world comes out of Brazil and Scandinavia. The biggest pop culture sensation this world has ever seen was British.
And really, a great artist can be anyone from Muddy Waters to John Zorn. 2 completely different musicians with exactly the same goal.

At the end of day, I don't care who can play the most styles, who can play the most complex and who can play the fastest. In the world of skill, that means something. In the world of art, that means nothing. Music is art.
I don't want to listen to music that I have to analyze so I know it's good. I like hearing something beautiful that touches me without having to think. I want my soul to be satisfied. When Vinnie Colaiuta plays, I think. I can also figure out what he's playing. When Elvin Jones plays, I hear colors and ocean waters. I feel a flow that reminds of waves. Elvin is not transcribable. No one knows what he's playing. Ever wonder why certain drummers have tons of clones? Because they're easy to figure out. You really don't see any Elvin Jones or Jack Dejohnette clones out there. Its impossible to copy them. But the Vinnie clones are everywhere. What does that tell you?

To you numbers on a schematic may be art. To me Van Gogh is art. Pablo Picasso is art. And drummers like Elvin Jones, Brian Blade, Levon Helm and Jack Dejohnette all possess this type artistry on the drums.

April, I'm so happy to see young music student have a real understanding of music. Best of luck with Manhattan School of music
 
I agree with April on this. Matthias, you're automatically out of the game when you say properly.I musically disagree with everything you wrote back to April. I bet Vinnie would too.
Maybe you misunderstood me. To express this thought to me, you had to properly set some letters and words together in order get it across properly. Voilà. I said properly because April stated that music consists only of creativity and sound.
There is no "proper" in music. Are you going to tell me Steve Jordan is proper? Jack Dejohnette? Paul Motian?
Yes, very much so!
I can go on and on. I agree with April in the sense that you're putting all these rules on music as if it IS a sport.
What rules did I put to music?
She hit it right on the head. Who are you to say who's expressing themselves properly? No one can say that and have a point. There are no rules in music, just like April said.
Well, April quite bashed some drummers, or a category of drummers she meant with it. Although she can speak for herself, why has she a point then?
If someone says they don't like Vinnie's drumming, it's a point of view that is different than yours. It's not because they don't understand something. It's almost as if you think the whole world should think like you. There are hundreds of thousands of musicians that prefer a different approach. Vinnie has one sound, and one approach. Just like other greats. Not everyone likes everyone.
You have to stop there, you're interpreting a whole book of clichées on me!! Where did I say anything like you implied I did?
Do I really have to recap what the point was? Ok:
April says: Vinnie is not the best. If someone thinks he is, he doesn't get the art of music.
Me says: Although you (April) just said music isn't about understanding, does someone who thinks Vinnie is the best not get the art of music?
That's all I said.
I agree with you about April putting them all in one box. In reality though, these drummers are known for their physical abilities. So that does put them in the same arena. In my opinion, none of them have a particularly great feel, which is why I think they are not in music.
There you go and categorize what music is and what music isn't, too. Doesn't that quite contradict your whole big post? By the way, I would be interested in what you particularly know of those drummer's works.
The drummer's April mentioned in that box are all primarily clinicians. I understand what she's saying.
I understand too. But I don't agree. By the way, you know them as clinicians. Most of them were around before clinics.
I also agree with her on best. Best applies only in a competition. Your music to language analogy is too literal. When speaking a language the idea is communication with another human being, so you have to be articulate and clean. If you're not, then you can't communicate. If this were the case in music, Elvin Jones would be musically illiterate. Steve Jordan would know only 4 words, and Jojo Mayer would have constant verbal diarhhea. Speaking an actual language and playing music are two very different things. They're only similar in the sense of conversation pertaining to jazz improvisation. But even then, you're actually creating words sometimes, and in a spoken language that would sound like gibberish. So again, it doesn't really apply.
Maybe whe interpret the analogy in different ways. Of course I don't mean it as literal. Notes ≠ letters. I mean it in a more intuitive way. If you say Steve Jordan knows only 4 words - besides not really doing him justice - you reduce what he's "saying" to his bare drum parts, too. But you have to consider the rest of the instruments that are playing with him, too, and you also have to consider his big thing, his sound choices. That's what all makes the language. Some people will dig it, some won't be touched. Hope you get what I mean now.
I disagree on the point you made with regards to Indian music as well. There's a huge difference between a clinician at a drum clinic playing different meter's in each limb just for the sake of challenge and difficulty, and a musical culture that's 200 or more years old. That was just a silly comparison on your part.
I only reacted to April's statement "Playing 7 in one hand, 5 in the other and 32nd notes on the kick drums has no place in music." I don't like it when someone comes and says to me what music was and music wasn't. And at the same being quite as dogmatic as I'm being accused of. And so I tried to put it into perspective.
I feel that fanatical drum fans like Matthias are attempting to turn music into a physical skill with pre-set requirements for what is good.
I get really pissed of by that **** you say there, sorry!
.The real artists in the art of music are much more open than this, and they create music. The most influential musicians of all time were all original, and did not have all of these required "skills" you put on music. They were creative and focused on music, not on who can play the smartest and fastest.
I'm sorry, I just don't know anything to say. Either I completely failed to get my thoughts across (in a foreign language to me, anyway), or you're just not reading well, and again turn all the bad clichées on me. I am really not about what you're accusing me of to be.
Matthias, even the way you categorize music is weird. Western pop? Most pop music in the world comes out of Brazil and Scandinavia. The biggest pop culture sensation this world has ever seen was British.
Well, April - American young music student - talked about playing in a famous club as a good indicator for making music, so I believe she is talking about popular western music. I don't categorize that, that's already been done. I didn't say western music was the largest music culture, or did I?
Scandinavia and Britain are Western in my book. I don't mean western USA, hehe.
At the end of day, I don't care who can play the most styles, who can play the most complex and who can play the fastest. In the world of skill, that means something. In the world of art, that means nothing. Music is art.
Well, although I disagree that in the world of art it meant nothing, I'm all with you. I don't know what all the fuss is about actually, I'm just pissed of from all these accusations. And I almost can't believe you disagree with everything in my previous post.
I don't want to listen to music that I have to analyze so I know it's good. I like hearing something beautiful that touches me without having to think. I want my soul to be satisfied.
Good for you. Me too.
No one knows what he's (Elvin) playing.
?
Ever wonder why certain drummers have tons of clones? Because they're easy to figure out. You really don't see any Elvin Jones or Jack Dejohnette clones out there. Its impossible to copy them. But the Vinnie clones are everywhere. What does that tell you?
You hear Elvin and Jack influenced musicians all around. You hear "clones" of Vinnie as you hear of all the influencial drummers, but noone sounds like Vinnie, noone thinks like him, and noone makes up music like he does. Because only he is Vinnie, as only Elvin was Elvin and Jack is Jack.
To you numbers on a schematic may be art. To me Van Gogh is art. Pablo Picasso is art. And drummers like Elvin Jones, Brian Blade, Levon Helm and Jack Dejohnette all possess this type artistry on the drums.
For the record, two things: a) For a mathematician numbers on a schematic are art.
b) I love Elvin's, Brian's and Jack's playing. Don't know about Levon Helm.

And by the by: Your painting allegory isn't that adequat either. Music is momentary art. Music is heavily related to time, it functions in a time axis. So a musician has to organize the sounds he produces a certain way in time in order to i.e. make it groove. A painter can do his thing in 2 seconds or 2 centuries, whatever he pleases.
...edited my post because it was too harsh, sorry. (in case you already read it)
 
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You can´t fight here, this is the Vinnie thread!?

Seriously though, stop trying to interpret and insult each other and talk about Vinnie instead. This is the Vinnie-thread right? Not the "I KNOW MUSIC BETAR THAN YOU!!" thread?
 
This is what Vinnie has to say on this topic:

"First of all, you have to want to play for the song. Then you'll start seeing musical value and fulfillment in that. You won't even think,"I could have done this really cool lick there." That is defeatist, non-musical thinking...

Anytime you strike the drums, you have to be aware that you're creating a musical event. If you think of it as something more or less technical, you're thinking reductionistically.

What I see happening a lot within drumming is a microcosmic example of what's happening in society, which is sensationalism...but now, if it's not sensational, its value is diminished. That kind of mentality contributes to short attention spans...

There's nothing wrong with personal development through playing an instrument, but what happens when it's treated as a sport? If you want razzle-dazzle...if you want to beat somebody up, be a boxer. All this time I thought drumming was art.

There are a lot of guys out there with skills who have not contributed to the evolution of the instrument. It's about more than that...it's an emotive language, an aesthetic. Skill is an aspect, but it's what you do with that skill, or say with that skill, that matters."

"You must show respect and compassion towards the other musicians, and at the same time try to guide things along. I think this is most important. Obviously, you need the capacity and the skills, but technical skill alone is not enough."

--Vinnie Colaiuta
 
Wow Bob, thank you! I'm not here to argue. Matthias is back pedaling. It's not like I think he's totally off or anything like that. I like the Vinnie article. Matthias if you read that article a bit closer you would not use phrases like 'the best'. Can't you hear what the man is saying? He's your idol, listen to him! lol
 
Wow Bob, thank you! I'm not here to argue. Matthias is back pedaling. It's not like I think he's totally off or anything like that. I like the Vinnie article. Matthias if you read that article a bit closer you would not use phrases like 'the best'. Can't you hear what the man is saying? He's your idol, listen to him! lol
What does back pedaling mean?
You mean read the Vinnie-article a bit closer? I'm all with Vinnie of course! The man isn't just a musical genius, he is a very profound thinker as well, I always love to read his thoughts or listen to what he says.
Yes, I never meant to say there is one best drummer. But I stick to my opinion that there are certain parameters to measure how "good" one is. But then the question is good for what as well. Depends on what you want from a musician.
Yeah, one of my idols, I got several :). Steve Jordan and Bill Stewart being two of them too, by the way!
 
By the way, if I may that bold, there is a nice double quote on the "better" topic from the Ginger Baker bashing thread:
mattsmith said:
I've talked to a lot of older musicians about this better is all subjective thing, and they just look at me like I'm nuts. One of them told me How do I hire the better drummer when I can't tell what better is?
Average said:
LOL. Classic. Sometimes I log on here and wonder if I am living/playing in some alternate universe where there actually IS a difference between a 6 year old drummer after his first lesson and a seasoned player with 33 years of experience. Clearly, reality must be wrong.
Although one must be careful indeed with the word "better" and "best", the guys do make a good point.
Oh, and I'm generally not here to argue, either :).
 
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Wow Bob, thank you! I'm not here to argue. Matthias is back pedaling. It's not like I think he's totally off or anything like that. I like the Vinnie article. Matthias if you read that article a bit closer you would not use phrases like 'the best'. Can't you hear what the man is saying? He's your idol, listen to him! lol

We all know Travis Barker and Joey Jordison are the best drummers of all anyway. The way Joey blasts those double-bass pedals constantly is way more gratifying than listening to anything of Vinnie's playing. And don't get me started on Travis. The way he bashes those cymbals is just poetry man!
 
Matt Smith's anecdote down their makes a good point - people at some point must be making qualitative judgments on Vinnie as a drummer; the producer/artist listens to his playing and other peoples' opinions and decides that he's the 'best' man for the job.
That doesn't contradict Vinnie's own thoughts own the issue, it's just that there's a distinction to be made between chops and artistry. It is possible to be a superior artist.
 
And don't get me started on Travis. The way he bashes those cymbals is just poetry man!

You are so right! Especially when he remixed "Crank Dat Souja Boy"!!!!1!!1!!1!!!1111!!! That is pure skill. It probably took him weeks to figure out the prerecorded beat for that song.

Those two drummers aren't even worthy of setting up Vinnie's drum set.
 
..

Talking of cymbal bashing, Vinnie usually 'ices' his hands after a gig, because he hits his cymbals so hard.

So I guess its never the technique, its always the player
 
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Talking of cymbal bashing, Vinnie usually 'ices' his hands after a gig, because he hits his cymbals so hard.

So I guess its never the technique, its always the player

I think it´s more due to his insanely hard rimshotting. No pun intended.
 
Thaardy, he does bomb the rimshots, but this is something he has said himself. The reason is cymbals.

...

If you say so. I can't remember getting any kind of pain while bashing cymbals though. Snare on the other hand.
 
Yea, I'm not saying I don't think VinColaiuta is brilliant. He has definitely added to the history of the instrument. I just KNOW there is no best in art. Just opinions. I saw Steve Hass last night with Manhattan Transfer. Not at all a forum for displaying originality or technical skill. He did anyway. I was impressed again. After seeing him with John Scofield where he was creative, then again with this group where it was restricted, I got to see what playing in a box is like. I don't know if I could do it. But it seems like if you're going to make money, you have to play in a box sometimes. Still he had some double bass drum work going on. I wonder if Vinnie felt like he was in a box with Faith Hill or Sting. Faith Hill? Rubbish music. Sting is great though. I wonder how I will make a living a sometimes. I'm going to school for music, but I really like drummers that are artists, not so functional in the contemporary world. Even Brian Blade plays rock. I wonder.

If a drummer has to ice their hands, it means the vibration from the stick is injuring them, so they're not using moeller properly or at all. I guess Vinnie doesn't apply this technique. If you use moeller you can play very hard and loud without any impact on your hands.
 
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