Thread: Vinnie Colaiuta
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Old 06-03-2010, 11:16 AM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Vinnie Colaiuta

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Originally Posted by Drumbob View Post
I agree with April on this. Matthias, you're automatically out of the game when you say properly.I musically disagree with everything you wrote back to April. I bet Vinnie would too.
Maybe you misunderstood me. To express this thought to me, you had to properly set some letters and words together in order get it across properly. Voilà. I said properly because April stated that music consists only of creativity and sound.
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There is no "proper" in music. Are you going to tell me Steve Jordan is proper? Jack Dejohnette? Paul Motian?
Yes, very much so!
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I can go on and on. I agree with April in the sense that you're putting all these rules on music as if it IS a sport.
What rules did I put to music?
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She hit it right on the head. Who are you to say who's expressing themselves properly? No one can say that and have a point. There are no rules in music, just like April said.
Well, April quite bashed some drummers, or a category of drummers she meant with it. Although she can speak for herself, why has she a point then?
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If someone says they don't like Vinnie's drumming, it's a point of view that is different than yours. It's not because they don't understand something. It's almost as if you think the whole world should think like you. There are hundreds of thousands of musicians that prefer a different approach. Vinnie has one sound, and one approach. Just like other greats. Not everyone likes everyone.
You have to stop there, you're interpreting a whole book of clichées on me!! Where did I say anything like you implied I did?
Do I really have to recap what the point was? Ok:
April says: Vinnie is not the best. If someone thinks he is, he doesn't get the art of music.
Me says: Although you (April) just said music isn't about understanding, does someone who thinks Vinnie is the best not get the art of music?
That's all I said.
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I agree with you about April putting them all in one box. In reality though, these drummers are known for their physical abilities. So that does put them in the same arena. In my opinion, none of them have a particularly great feel, which is why I think they are not in music.
There you go and categorize what music is and what music isn't, too. Doesn't that quite contradict your whole big post? By the way, I would be interested in what you particularly know of those drummer's works.
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The drummer's April mentioned in that box are all primarily clinicians. I understand what she's saying.
I understand too. But I don't agree. By the way, you know them as clinicians. Most of them were around before clinics.
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I also agree with her on best. Best applies only in a competition. Your music to language analogy is too literal. When speaking a language the idea is communication with another human being, so you have to be articulate and clean. If you're not, then you can't communicate. If this were the case in music, Elvin Jones would be musically illiterate. Steve Jordan would know only 4 words, and Jojo Mayer would have constant verbal diarhhea. Speaking an actual language and playing music are two very different things. They're only similar in the sense of conversation pertaining to jazz improvisation. But even then, you're actually creating words sometimes, and in a spoken language that would sound like gibberish. So again, it doesn't really apply.
Maybe whe interpret the analogy in different ways. Of course I don't mean it as literal. Notes ≠ letters. I mean it in a more intuitive way. If you say Steve Jordan knows only 4 words - besides not really doing him justice - you reduce what he's "saying" to his bare drum parts, too. But you have to consider the rest of the instruments that are playing with him, too, and you also have to consider his big thing, his sound choices. That's what all makes the language. Some people will dig it, some won't be touched. Hope you get what I mean now.
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I disagree on the point you made with regards to Indian music as well. There's a huge difference between a clinician at a drum clinic playing different meter's in each limb just for the sake of challenge and difficulty, and a musical culture that's 200 or more years old. That was just a silly comparison on your part.
I only reacted to April's statement "Playing 7 in one hand, 5 in the other and 32nd notes on the kick drums has no place in music." I don't like it when someone comes and says to me what music was and music wasn't. And at the same being quite as dogmatic as I'm being accused of. And so I tried to put it into perspective.
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I feel that fanatical drum fans like Matthias are attempting to turn music into a physical skill with pre-set requirements for what is good.
I get really pissed of by that **** you say there, sorry!
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.The real artists in the art of music are much more open than this, and they create music. The most influential musicians of all time were all original, and did not have all of these required "skills" you put on music. They were creative and focused on music, not on who can play the smartest and fastest.
I'm sorry, I just don't know anything to say. Either I completely failed to get my thoughts across (in a foreign language to me, anyway), or you're just not reading well, and again turn all the bad clichées on me. I am really not about what you're accusing me of to be.
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Matthias, even the way you categorize music is weird. Western pop? Most pop music in the world comes out of Brazil and Scandinavia. The biggest pop culture sensation this world has ever seen was British.
Well, April - American young music student - talked about playing in a famous club as a good indicator for making music, so I believe she is talking about popular western music. I don't categorize that, that's already been done. I didn't say western music was the largest music culture, or did I?
Scandinavia and Britain are Western in my book. I don't mean western USA, hehe.
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At the end of day, I don't care who can play the most styles, who can play the most complex and who can play the fastest. In the world of skill, that means something. In the world of art, that means nothing. Music is art.
Well, although I disagree that in the world of art it meant nothing, I'm all with you. I don't know what all the fuss is about actually, I'm just pissed of from all these accusations. And I almost can't believe you disagree with everything in my previous post.
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I don't want to listen to music that I have to analyze so I know it's good. I like hearing something beautiful that touches me without having to think. I want my soul to be satisfied.
Good for you. Me too.
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No one knows what he's (Elvin) playing.
?
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Ever wonder why certain drummers have tons of clones? Because they're easy to figure out. You really don't see any Elvin Jones or Jack Dejohnette clones out there. Its impossible to copy them. But the Vinnie clones are everywhere. What does that tell you?
You hear Elvin and Jack influenced musicians all around. You hear "clones" of Vinnie as you hear of all the influencial drummers, but noone sounds like Vinnie, noone thinks like him, and noone makes up music like he does. Because only he is Vinnie, as only Elvin was Elvin and Jack is Jack.
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To you numbers on a schematic may be art. To me Van Gogh is art. Pablo Picasso is art. And drummers like Elvin Jones, Brian Blade, Levon Helm and Jack Dejohnette all possess this type artistry on the drums.
For the record, two things: a) For a mathematician numbers on a schematic are art.
b) I love Elvin's, Brian's and Jack's playing. Don't know about Levon Helm.

And by the by: Your painting allegory isn't that adequat either. Music is momentary art. Music is heavily related to time, it functions in a time axis. So a musician has to organize the sounds he produces a certain way in time in order to i.e. make it groove. A painter can do his thing in 2 seconds or 2 centuries, whatever he pleases.
...edited my post because it was too harsh, sorry. (in case you already read it)

Last edited by Swiss Matthias; 06-03-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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