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Old 08-13-2013, 08:41 AM
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MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Originally Posted by viva_nate View Post
But it is this belief in the need to act in order to fulfill a destiny that creates a sense of purpose in the man, but Oedipus' control over fulfilling the destiny is an illusion. Instead, there are a number of superhuman forces that bend him to their will.
Thank you, you just solidified my point about no free will in destiny. It's the superhuman force that control Oedipus, not Oedipus himself, regardless of his beliefs.

Originally Posted by viva_nate View Post
But of course determinism doesn't dictate anything, because that would create some sort of destined or purposive element. Determinist physics are results of prior causes (a better example is "Since my fist contacted their face, they shot me, and I died, and they went to jail" and that would go on as an inevitable chain that whose constituents only come into existence as a result of their causes, but are necessary as opposed to probable - otherwise it's as if you're making a point about the efficient cause). Or, as you say, nothing else could happen - but because if something else could happen, there is a chance that it would. There's no maybe/maybe not. Cars are totalled if they are totalled; people die if they die. A deterministic system says: the car crash that happened was the only car crash that could have happened, and in the presence of the car crash, the only result could be that people died. How do we know? Because the cars crashed, and people died. That something happened is proof that it must have happened.
Again, me hitting someone in the face doesn't GUARANTEE they will shoot me. Choices are involved. Look at it this way, earlier you mentioned social determinism. Social determinism says that ideals are set in place and upheld (hopefully) to benefit the whole of a certain society. Yet these ideals are set in place by others who are entrusted to set in place rules that are deemed acceptable to their society. So therefore they CHOSE what is to be accepted. However, we can always break the rules. Or we can even decide to leave said society and join another. Yet another choice. Even in determinism, a chain of events is always a series of causes and effects. The chain would never go: I made red kool-aid. Therefore there was a car accident out on the street. Finally, three children got their hair cut.

Originally Posted by viva_nate View Post
Well, what are these "philosophical ideas" - are we talking final causes or just efficient causes, or what? Under whose theory are we defining the event? The discussion is not an either/or, that you have free will or the world is determined (though quantum mechanics makes the strictest form of the latter difficult to argue). "Free will" - as poorly defined as it is, "conscious agency" is probably better - is compatible with determinist or indeterminist schemes. It's fully possible to claim agency in a determinist system. What's at issue in questions of will (free or other) is the just-ness of your actions and how we rationalize them. How are we responsible for the events we're discussing, and what effect does our relative level of agency have on our obligation to act responsibly?
Unless you are talking about Brain in a Vat, I don't see that it matters what philosophical branch you are referring. Look at Utilitarianism. The Utilitarianist judges moral worth by the resulting outcome of their actions. They must exercise free will and make a choice, but yet their actions don't necessarily conform to what we would deem acceptable. Here is an example: You are a doctor in a fertility clinic, and the building is on fire. Inside the building is you, a three year old girl, and 100 test tube babies. You can either save the girl or the test tube babies, but not both. The girl is already alive, but the test tube babies all have the potential for human life, and there are 100 of them. Who do you save? If you choose to answer this question, than you have used free will to make a decision, be it rational or not, and even only saving yourself still is a choice that you have made. Not answering this question is also a choice.

Tell you what. The title of this thread is: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists? No, I don't think there can, and that is my opinion.

Just a thought, but isn't the idea of pre-destiny a little silly? Is pre-destiny the waiting room you sit in before you actually enter destiny? And if that is the case, you are not yet destined for anything?
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