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-   -   Is free Jazz the best Jazz? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96962)

topgun2021 10-31-2012 04:56 PM

Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Both in compositional form and ticket price.

larryace 10-31-2012 05:26 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
If there's anything I've learned here....no music is better than any other music. There is no best music. There is no best drum kit. There is no best drummer, no best technique. There is no best ride cymbal, crash cymbal, hi hat cymbal. Free jazz isn't best, it just is. It might be your personal favorite, that's legit, but I betcha it's not everyone's personal favorite. Best is a word that really has no use here. OK Pete Best can be called Best, but beyond that, best is a useless term here. This thread is the best! :)

Deathmetalconga 10-31-2012 06:35 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by topgun2021 (Post 1063674)
Both is compositional form and ticket price.

What do you think?

I love free jazz. I think it is the best jazz and I laugh at the contempt the fossilized traditionalists hold for it.

Mad About Drums 10-31-2012 07:51 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
It's cheaper than expensive jazz, for sure... :)

Anon La Ply 10-31-2012 10:20 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
The best jazz is what you feel like listening to at the time. For Wynton/Crouch traditionalists the best jazz excludes free and fusion. For some people no jazz at all is best.

Me, sometimes I'm in the mood for Sun Ra, Trane, or Art Ensemble. Sometimes I'd rather Nina, Diana Krall or Duke, or maybe I feel like listening to a hot trio like Bad Plus or Hiromi ... hell, I even feel like listening to Albert Ayler in masochistic moments ;-)

I've seen some great jazz in concert halls that wasn't free ($).

bobdadruma 10-31-2012 11:56 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
I like all styles of jazz. I wouldn't call any of them "Best"
The best music is the music that you like.
Music is a personal thing more than anything.
Feed your own head first when it comes to what you like.

dmacc 11-01-2012 12:32 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums (Post 1063728)
It's cheaper than expensive jazz, for sure... :)

Lol.... This is the best... Too funny....

All that needs to be said has been. There's no "best" anything.

8Mile 11-01-2012 02:07 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
I wish more people gave it a chance. There are times when it's the only music that can scratch the itch for me.

Anon La Ply 11-01-2012 05:43 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 8Mile (Post 1063876)
I wish more people gave it a chance. There are times when it's the only music that can scratch the itch for me.

Everybody's talking about rag-ism and swing-ism and bop-ism and fusion-ism
Pop-ism, rock-ism, ho
p-ism
All we are sayyy-ing - is give free a chance
All we are sayyy-ing - is give free a chance

Won't be in our lifetime, Larry!

Natewest 11-02-2012 06:54 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Free jazz is the reason good jazz died.I see no point in listening to people soloing on brass instruments.I have no idea why so many jazz artists who improvise are held to such a high regard.The songs lacks structure and melody.Smooth jazz is just like that as well.The music is cliche and boring with absolutely no structure.

Anon La Ply 11-02-2012 08:45 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Natewest (Post 1064286)
Free jazz is the reason good jazz died.I see no point in listening to people soloing on brass instruments.I have no idea why so many jazz artists who improvise are held to such a high regard.The songs lacks structure and melody.

A lot of people don't much like jazz so I get that, but I don't understand why you don't like solos on brass instruments? Is it just brass but reeds and woodwinds? Piano, guitar, synth? Drums?? Or do you just not enjoy solos in general?

Not all music needs structure and melody to be fantastic.

aydee 11-02-2012 09:23 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
...............,,,But what is jazz? ..............,,,

aydee 11-02-2012 09:25 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Natewest (Post 1064286)
Free jazz is the reason good jazz died.I see no point in listening to people soloing on brass instruments.I have no idea why so many jazz artists who improvise are held to such a high regard.The songs lacks structure and melody.Smooth jazz is just like that as well.The music is cliche and boring with absolutely no structure.

Do you like Wagner? Curious.

con struct 11-02-2012 07:23 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Smooth jazz doesn't have structure? I'd like to see that one explained.

I've found that very few people have the ability, whatever you wish to call that ability, to play free and make anything meaningful of it. In the case of free jazz is seems that, for the most part, Marshall McLuhan was right, and once you get the message you're pretty much left with abstract expressionist ear wash.

BacteriumFendYoke 11-02-2012 07:52 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Natewest (Post 1064286)
Free jazz is the reason good jazz died.I see no point in listening to people soloing on brass instruments.I have no idea why so many jazz artists who improvise are held to such a high regard.The songs lacks structure and melody.Smooth jazz is just like that as well.The music is cliche and boring with absolutely no structure.

Lacking in structure and melody?

Crikey. I think you've rather missed the point.

I'm a composer. I'm not a composer of any kind of Jazz but what I compose (Noise) takes the same basic aesthetic framework as Free Jazz. It's about rejection. It's about provocation and it's about asking fundamental questions. What is music? Do we need melody? If it's disorganised, is it still music? All of these are legitimate questions raised from the study of 'Free' musics.

If you want to read more, may I suggest buying 'Audio Culture: The Aesthetics of Modern Music' and giving the articles in there a read? It's really fascinating.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Audio-Cultur...1878737&sr=8-1

There. I'll make it easy for you.

Swiss Matthias 11-02-2012 08:23 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 8Mile (Post 1063876)
I wish more people gave it a chance. There are times when it's the only music that can scratch the itch for me.

could you recommend some important and great free jazz album, perhaps for the novice rather?

BacteriumFendYoke 11-02-2012 09:03 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias (Post 1064450)
could you recommend some important and great free jazz album, perhaps for the novice rather?

Ornette Coleman's 'Free Jazz' is a decent start, being amongst the first of the breed and a brilliant idiomatic exposition of the style.

Dr_Watso 11-02-2012 10:02 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Two dollar jazz is actually the best jazz.

Midnite Zephyr 11-02-2012 11:42 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums (Post 1063728)
It's cheaper than expensive jazz, for sure... :)

I like it. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Anon La Ply 11-03-2012 12:07 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Great post, Duncan. It's all about trying to avoid stamping over the same old ground. I vaguely remember a conversation about musical conservatism on DW previously - how music is generally more conservative than art due to the nature of our senses.

People can happily look at some pretty way out art and graphics but are intimidated and disturbed by equally crazy sound. I'm sure Merzbow would be a dealbreaker for 99.999% of the human race ...

Hearing is a less evolved sense than vision and more physically impactful on us. We're even more conservative with artistic experiments using more base senses like taste and smell ... no one is going to tolerate experiments with tuna ice cream or cabbage perfume (one hopes).

There are numerous standard rhythms, melodies, harmonies, timbres and subject areas in music. Many musicians and listeners only seem to acknowledge linear progression in those areas - for music to become ever more dexterous, in command of the instrument, playing with greater perfection and sophistication. The equivalent in art would be to aspire towards greater photo realism.

Free jazz certainly is expressionist, as Jay said - you can see equivalences with expressionist artists like Jackson Pollock.

Having said that, I only like a small amount of free - Sun Ra when he's not being too (aurally) goofy, though free is only a portion of what the Arkestra played. Ornette's Lonely Woman (courtesy of 8Mile). Would the start of Pharaoh's "Creator" qualify as free? It's one of the greatest things I've ever heard.

Anthony Amodeo 11-03-2012 12:51 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
free jazz?

there is a cover charge to just about every show I see

Anon La Ply 11-03-2012 02:06 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum (Post 1064526)
free jazz?

there is a cover charge to just about every show I see

Sure. There's a couple of hundred bucks charge to see our main man, Kenny ...

;)

Swiss Matthias 11-03-2012 11:19 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke (Post 1064463)
Ornette Coleman's 'Free Jazz' is a decent start, being amongst the first of the breed and a brilliant idiomatic exposition of the style.

Thanks, I will check it out!

tamadrm 11-10-2012 10:58 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
The best jazz....is the jazz you listen too.Even if you like that elevator(lift) music jazz,its all good.

Dixieland,Free,Swing.....who cares.If you like it....then the label dosen't matter.:)

Steve B

grobinson2 12-25-2012 04:40 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
My experience has often been that guys who can't play bebop or swing, play free jazz. It's like any other form of art: you have to be at least competent, if not incredibly proficient, at the fundamental skills of playing jazz music- know the history, know the styles, learn harmony, etc. Once you know all the rules, it's acceptable and often fun to stretch or break them, and I can appreciate great players who do that (i.e. The Fringe, later Coltrane stuff, etc.). But in my opinion, if you can't play the "real" stuff, then "free jazz" is just a way to stroke your ego while masking your inabilities as a jazz musician.

slowrocker 12-25-2012 04:48 AM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
I just wish I could play jazz well. I had a drum instructor who was a jazz drummer. I could actually outplay him in rock but I couldn't come close to him in the jazz stuff. Some of it I don't even want to listen to but I wish I could play it.

solomarce1 04-11-2013 05:58 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
The best music, is the one that's honest, regardless the tag it may have. If you really mean that note, people will feel it and the music will transcend.

Garvin 04-11-2013 07:41 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grobinson2 (Post 1088913)
My experience has often been that guys who can't play bebop or swing, play free jazz. It's like any other form of art: you have to be at least competent, if not incredibly proficient, at the fundamental skills of playing jazz music- know the history, know the styles, learn harmony, etc. Once you know all the rules, it's acceptable and often fun to stretch or break them, and I can appreciate great players who do that (i.e. The Fringe, later Coltrane stuff, etc.). But in my opinion, if you can't play the "real" stuff, then "free jazz" is just a way to stroke your ego while masking your inabilities as a jazz musician.

I partly agree with you here. But I think using the word "jazz" opens a pandoras box in these kinds of discussions. Improvised music or improvised sound etc. seems to alleviate the defensiveness of the "real-jazz" community in these debates. I think when you get into talking about Sun-Ra, or Pharoah Saunders or Coltranes later stuff, you are still talking about "jazz" though.

What I do agree with, and what I am guilty of (not that it was wrong) is having come into jazz as a drummer from the improvised music side of things. I never did learn traditional bop, or swing until a lot later. I don't know that it has hurt me, but what I do think is that I'm way more open to different styles, genres and voices than a lot of the jazz guys I know who came up through the schools being taught how to play jazz correctly. It's all good though. We've chased this discussion around the board for years as I recall, and it's been a while since we had a real "jazz war" here ;)

Zickos 04-11-2013 09:43 PM

Re: Is free Jazz the best Jazz?
 
I would think the more you pay for it, the better. Just my opinion.


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