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-   -   How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90929)

blastbeatkeeper 05-16-2012 09:06 PM

How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Ok, this may get lengthy, but here it goes....

So, our frontman, isnt much of a frontman. Other than being one of the 2 remaining original members(myself included), we dont have any more reason to have him in the band. He hasnt always been the best lead singer, more or less, just into the whole party scene. Boozing, forgetting words to the songs, not showing up to practices, paying our room rent up to 2 weeks late. This is just some of the things weve dealt with with Todd, as we will call him. Ultimately, what we are looking for, is for Todd to step aside and manage the band, along with run his promotion buisness, and we will bring in a different frontman. We already have someone interested, so finding another singer isnt going to be a problem. The biggest thing is, is how do we tell Todd. Hes one to bug out, and flip a lid over stupid stuff. Do we tell him straight up? Do we offer an ultimatum of, look. You need to get your crap together, or else we are going to replace you. Or do we just lay it on the line. Tell him that we need to have him step aside and start to manage the band so we can bring in another sionger so that we can start progressing forward. Has anyone dealt with this? How did you do it? Im good friends with Todd, and I just know that he will end up flipping out, but I dont know what he will do when he flips out. Anyone? someone?

larryace 05-16-2012 09:32 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
No matter what, it's gonna be a mess. My suggestion is be straight up, without attacking. Never use the word "You". Always use the word "We". Rather than say, "you're not doing this or that" say "we feel that as a result of forgetting words, tardiness etc. we want so and so to front the band". It will still make emotions fly I'm sure, it's unavoidable. So just accept that, expect it, don't engage him, let him blow off his steam, don't react, and stand firm. (Like a parent when a kid is throwing a tantrum. Stay calm)

I don't have much sympathy for someone who doesn't do their job. I just quit a band I have been in since 2004 because the main guy....his skills have gone backwards to the point that he's falling apart musically. I work hard to keep my skills up. If he had just maintained his prior level, I wouldn't be upset, but he was digressing with every gig and rehearsal. Finally I had enough and walked out. I detailed everything that I felt in an email, I called him out on everything. He offered excuses which I flat out didn't buy and told him why I didn't buy them.

So he feels I attacked him. I just offered my perceptions of what was going on, and like I said, I have no sympathies for grown men who don't do their job. He needed to hear the harsh truth. It was an act of kindness, really. If I didn't care about him, I wouldn't have attacked him lol. I'm not afraid of ruffling feathers anymore. I kind of like it actually :) Can I break the news to him?

You could show him this thread too....

gregcon 05-16-2012 10:25 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Hey Todd, we're not doing this any more. Then, reform something 'different' without him.

Muckster 05-16-2012 11:57 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Huh? you want "Todd" to step aside and manage the band? What could possibly go wrong with that arrangement?

I'm with Larry....Hey Todd, you're fired.

opentune 05-17-2012 12:04 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gregcon (Post 1000834)
Hey Todd, we're not doing this any more. Then, reform something 'different' without him.

A band I was in did that, within hours 4 of us quit around the leader, and within a day we were back practicing in a new band, happy as larks.
problem in this situation is they want the singer to quit but then to manage the band.

I agree it will be a negative reaction, and one in which you cannot expect him to agree to manage but not be the 'lead'. There's a certain amount of ego to be swallowed. Lead singers not known to swallow ego. My guess is if you are firing your singer you are also firing your manager and will need to find one of those too.

I work around people all day, but there' s no drama quite like 'band drama'

DrumEatDrum 05-17-2012 12:11 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Hire Donald Trump to give him the news...

Ian Williams 05-17-2012 12:17 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Stuff its mouth with a pair of socks. ;*)

bosman 05-17-2012 01:30 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
How would things be different if he managed the band? You say he doesn't have the professionalism to contribute musically, yet you feel he can lead your band forward as a manager. He made bad decisions as a member of the band. You should be prepared because he may make bad decisions as a manager also.

Based on what you told us, it sounds like you all want him out. I do understand you have a friendship and that makes things difficult. Good luck.

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-17-2012 02:23 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Muckster (Post 1000869)
Huh? you want "Todd" to step aside and manage the band? What could possibly go wrong with that arrangement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosman (Post 1000896)
How would things be different if he managed the band? You say he doesn't have the professionalism to contribute musically, yet you feel he can lead your band forward as a manager. He made bad decisions as a member of the band. You should be prepared because he may make bad decisions as a manager also.

+3.

Makes no sense to me.

As for the firing. Do it as a band. Sit him down and tell him where he's gone wrong and that you guys wanna continue without him. Wish him well and crack on with it.

It's never easy, but if it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done. Don't prolong the agony.....rip it off like a band aid.

harryconway 05-17-2012 02:25 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
OK, with all the "negative" aspects of this cat, you want him to manage the band. WRONG.
Fire the guy .... simple .... "Todd, you're fired!" You've already got a guy in the wings to replace him ... so do it. Once that's done, either you guys manage yourselves, or you find a "real" manager. Don't hire Todd, the boozer party animal. If he can't pay rent on time ... you're gonna get him to handle financial band deals? Not a good plan.

Deathmetalconga 05-17-2012 03:04 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper (Post 1000797)
Ok, this may get lengthy, but here it goes....

So, our frontman, isnt much of a frontman. Other than being one of the 2 remaining original members(myself included), we dont have any more reason to have him in the band. He hasnt always been the best lead singer, more or less, just into the whole party scene. Boozing, forgetting words to the songs, not showing up to practices, paying our room rent up to 2 weeks late. This is just some of the things weve dealt with with Todd, as we will call him. Ultimately, what we are looking for, is for Todd to step aside and manage the band, along with run his promotion buisness, and we will bring in a different frontman. We already have someone interested, so finding another singer isnt going to be a problem. The biggest thing is, is how do we tell Todd. Hes one to bug out, and flip a lid over stupid stuff. Do we tell him straight up? Do we offer an ultimatum of, look. You need to get your crap together, or else we are going to replace you. Or do we just lay it on the line. Tell him that we need to have him step aside and start to manage the band so we can bring in another sionger so that we can start progressing forward. Has anyone dealt with this? How did you do it? Im good friends with Todd, and I just know that he will end up flipping out, but I dont know what he will do when he flips out. Anyone? someone?

I am baffled. If you don't want him as a frontman because he is irresponsible, why on earth would you want him as a manager? Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I almost want you to do it anyway as it will produce some very entertaining stories.

blastbeatkeeper 05-17-2012 03:15 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Well, first of all, I completely understand with what you guys are all saying....and in hind sight, it makes no sense at all.
Secondly, were an underground hardcore band....its not like were playing shows and walking out with hundreds of dollars in our pockets after every show. I think the most this band has made in its 2 years of being a band was 180 bucks in one night...the ironic part is that it was a show completely put together, promoted, and organized by Todd. Thats the reason we thought about having him stick around as our promoter/manager, due to the fact that when he wants to, he can make stuff happen.
We have already agreed that we are going to sit him down as a band and talk to him. We just dont know if we should offer an ultimatum, give it one more chance, or just fire him outright. And you guys are right. It doesnt make sense to put the managing resposibility on someone who cant even handle being the lead singer of a band. He is a good promoter, but I guess instead of taking the chance in having him screw us over, it would just be best to sever all ties and go from here. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate it.

Mad About Drums 05-17-2012 04:14 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper (Post 1001074)
Well, first of all, I completely understand with what you guys are all saying....and in hind sight, it makes no sense at all.
Secondly, were an underground hardcore band....its not like were playing shows and walking out with hundreds of dollars in our pockets after every show. I think the most this band has made in its 2 years of being a band was 180 bucks in one night...the ironic part is that it was a show completely put together, promoted, and organized by Todd. Thats the reason we thought about having him stick around as our promoter/manager, due to the fact that when he wants to, he can make stuff happen.
We have already agreed that we are going to sit him down as a band and talk to him. We just dont know if we should offer an ultimatum, give it one more chance, or just fire him outright. And you guys are right. It doesnt make sense to put the managing resposibility on someone who cant even handle being the lead singer of a band. He is a good promoter, but I guess instead of taking the chance in having him screw us over, it would just be best to sever all ties and go from here. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate it.

I've been reading this thread for the last 2 days, and I have been in similar situations in bands before.

Historically Blast, have you had a discussion with Todd related to the issue(s) concerned?

If you haven't, then perhaps a discussion highlighting the issues with him, and offering an ultimatum could be what's needed, providing that the discussion could be handled in a friendly manner. Todd might agree and make the necessary effort to improve upon the issues being discussed.

As far as the singing/managing offering is concerned, there's a few things to consider, someone who's not a brilliant show man and singer could be a good manager and/or promoter, it all lies at what someone's best when it comes to these issues, since you've said that if he puts is mind to it, he can be very effecient, perhaps his strong skills is not being the frontman, perhaps he'll be better at organising and promoting your band from a background point of view. Also, being a friend to you, it could be the best of both world.

Just my 2c.

Xero Talent 05-17-2012 04:23 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Too much passive aggression in the world these days.

Be honest. He may be upset, but you'll earn respect for just being a man and telling him straight. Especially if he's a friend. And if not, then was he really much of a friend?

blastbeatkeeper 05-17-2012 06:27 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
We have not actually sat down and laid it out in front of him, no. We have been on his a$$ about writing lyrics for new songs(we have 3 musically arranged songs in the wings, but no lyrics yet), forgetting lyrics, having to chase him down for lineups for the night, and been on him about making a proper set list(I know set list isnt really that important, but when you say your going to take that responsibility, then do it). We, as a band, just discussed this amongst ourselves, at yet another practice Todd has missed, this past Tuesday, and have come to the conclusion that he needs to go. We are just on the fence of either completely out, or taking over the managerial/promotions area, and letting him stay associated with the band that way.

Xero Talent 05-17-2012 06:37 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper (Post 1001129)
We are just on the fence of either completely out, or taking over the managerial/promotions area, and letting him stay associated with the band that way.

If he can't show up to be a frontman, do you think he's reliable enough to manage and promote your band as a "backman"?

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-18-2012 02:26 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums (Post 1001089)
perhaps his strong skills is not being the frontman, perhaps he'll be better at organising and promoting your band from a background point of view.

Although his attitude speaks volumes mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper (Post 1001129)
We are just on the fence of either completely out, or taking over the managerial/promotions area, and letting him stay associated with the band that way.

From what you've presented here, it sounds like he couldn't organise a shag in a brothel. Honestly, how do you think he's gonna handle the organisational skills required to manage a band if he can't even organise to get himself to practice? Given I've only heard your side of this saga, but it very much sounds like he'd struggle to run a bath......how's he gonna go running a band?

I believe in giving everyone a fair go and everyone deserves a second chance. But you've asked various requirements of him and he's delivered on none of them. Is he really gonna change his approach overnight? Only you guys know.

Zickos 05-18-2012 03:31 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Why wouldn't want my front man? You don't even know my front man!

Otto 05-18-2012 04:05 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
One of the most important things you can develop as a musician is your reputation.

Even the folks you dont really want to work with will effect how the general music community views you.

Are there other projects he is involved in you can encourage?

Are there other opportunities you could spend a little time developing for him?

If so, you could help him find a more sutable project to be involved in at the same time...then take a break...let him work the other project....then come back together sans unwanted member and find a new frontman...

...all while maintaining good will...

a little excessivly hopeful but win/win situation seeking is something highly prized.


..and should you need him to fill-in down the road you will still be on good terms...if not better terms...and you wont have to sacrifice playing opportunities...another reputation bonus!

blastbeatkeeper 05-20-2012 02:52 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
The only other project he has going on is he is currently setting up shows at a newer venue around the city we live in. Other than that, the band is his only other "commitment". I am actually getting ready to take a break from the band as I am expecting a son in September. We do have one small tour lined up the middle of next month(one successful mission on Todd's part) going from NY to PA to NJ, and working our way back up to Albany area. After that, Im done with shows until after the new year so I can be home with my newborn son and be helpin out with, ya know, the fatherly duties(I already have a 10 year old...should be cake, right?? hahaha)
So, maybe during that break, the band can get together for dinner or something and just sit down and talk and lay it out on the line:Get your sh*t together, Todd, and we need to burst back on to the scene when time comes. If hes not on board with it, then goodbye. We will find someone else who wants to have this band ready, and make it live to its full potential.

Midnite Zephyr 05-20-2012 06:35 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 1000875)
Hire Donald Trump to give him the news...

+1 that'll work................................

inneedofgrace 05-22-2012 04:57 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gregcon (Post 1000834)
Hey Todd, we're not doing this any more. Then, reform something 'different' without him.

Take it from someone who has been on the raw end of this type of deal - it is PAINFUL. And I was bitter for years the way the band I helped form, diced me out of the equation by doing this in an underhanded fashion. It would have sucked to be told to my face why they were getting rid of me (which they never did explain), but I would have been able to recover quicker and move on.

If you are firing the guy, tell him exactly why and to his face, in as kind of a way as possibly.

The other option is to tell him what issues you have with him, and give the guy one more chance to prove himself or he's going to be replaced. Then his destiny is in his own hands. Shape up or be shipped out.

blastbeatkeeper 05-23-2012 04:00 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
So, we ripped the bandaid off last night. It was just as bad as we all thought...Todd overreacted, just as I thought he was going too. Threatened to go trash all of our gear(including the other bands stuff that we share the room with). We have been contact with our landlord already, and his name is being removed from the lease agreement. Im purchasing a latch lock with a combo lock to put on the room. Of course, he was drunk while telling him that we're done, so he started flipping out. Instead of arguing with him, I told him I would call him tomorrow(which is today)and explain because I wasnt wasting my time trying to argue and fight when he was drunk.
He knew why we were upset with him. He knows that hes been going down the spiral. I told him last night if hes got so many problems, then step back. Noone is going to look down at him for taking a break and figuring your own personal demons out. He wouldnt hear of it. Just kept talking crap that this was HIS band and that hes already got people lined up to play with him and everything else. I just bascially shook my head and said whatever. I wasnt about to get into a pissing match with someone like him. I just cant wait til this week is over, and have all this crap behind me so I can move on with my life, and prepare for the birth of my son. Thanks everyone who offered their advice....it was greatly appreciated.

Xero Talent 05-23-2012 04:24 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Well done man. Time heals, he'll get over it. Hopefully he'll use it as a wake up call.

Good luck!

Kg_lee 05-23-2012 06:37 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Wow, sometimes people do over react. Still beware of the crazy musician!!!

I quit a band once to join a better band. Anyway a member of that band over reacted and trashed my Pearl Masters Kit. The the damn legal system works is since I was not around at the time this happened and didn't see anything and the band said they didn't do it, nothing could be done to them. I did find out years later which member did it and that the band fired him on the road and returned the favor of smashing his gear and left him behind.

The bright side of having my my Pearl kit smashed was a well off fan of me bought me a DW kit for me to play in my next band.

inneedofgrace 05-23-2012 06:52 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
The fact that he was drunk when he was told of his fate is another indicator of his problems. You guys did the right thing, despite the ugly reaction. One can only hope that he gets past the denial stage and realizes he needs help and then gets the help.

blastbeatkeeper 05-23-2012 08:18 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inneedofgrace (Post 1003355)
The fact that he was drunk when he was told of his fate is another indicator of his problems. You guys did the right thing, despite the ugly reaction. One can only hope that he gets past the denial stage and realizes he needs help and then gets the help.

His problem is that hes already gotten the help, and then said he doesnt need it. Hes got a blood clot the size of a baseball in his leg, his doctors keep telling him to stop drinking and smoking, or its going to kill him. He lives his whole life in a cloud of denial, and theres no hope for this guy. Its sad, because he was doing really good for a while. Then he just started going downhill again. Im sad to lose a friend, as anyone would be. But Im relieved at the same time to not have to deal with the crap anymore. Thanks again for the words of advice.

cyberdyke 06-04-2012 07:40 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
It would be so much easier if we as musicians approached being in a band as the job that it is. What I mean by that is, when people start screwing up, talk to them about it, so that you have it on "record." Also that treats everyone in the band as an adult, let's them know what is expected of them and/or what their responsibilities are.
Wouldn't you rather know that something you are doing with a band is not working, BEFORE, they kick you out?
It is amazing to me how many of us, me included, turn into chickens when it comes to talking to a band member about something that is pissing us off so much so that the joy has gone out of playing with that band?
I'll bet most of us wouldn't think twice about telling that jerk at work to stop doing whatever it is that pisses us off, or going to our boss about something we don't like at work. Why is being in a band any different?
Just my $.02 worth.

JimmyTheMonkey 06-04-2012 09:11 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Getting him to stay around and be an effective band manager could be quite problematic. The only way I can see that continued relationship working is if it his idea. If you have patience, you can make suggestions over time that he would be best in management role, looking for his reaction. If he seems interested in it, then push him there. If it seems quite adverse to it, then I believe you have to part ways completely.

bigiainw 06-07-2012 11:17 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
If I was Todd, and you wanted me to hang about after you fired me, you'd have to empty the urine out of your drums before you played again. Seriously, if that was his reaction to the man to man chat about things, run away fast and don't look back! It's going to be ugly!

Anon La Ply 06-08-2012 04:12 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Nice to see ya, nice to see ya go.

I know the type. They seem connected because they have the gift of the gab so you overlook their obvious flaws. Then you find the band's not getting anywhere.

Been there, done that, and I have 30 years of office work to show for it.

SticksEasy 06-08-2012 04:39 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
I had an extremely similar problem once. Unfortunately, any way you slice it, if the dude wants to be in the band, he's gonna' be upset. But if he has any decent composure to him, he'll get over it and move on.

ageadm 06-16-2012 11:36 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
You did well bro. You guys got rid of a real problem, a problem that could've grown with time.

Large 06-17-2012 05:57 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
wake him up, tell him "come with us" and you left him in a bus station with no money only with his tikets for a bus with New York destination L0L

blastbeatkeeper 06-21-2012 02:37 AM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply (Post 1009455)
I know the type. They seem connected because they have the gift of the gab so you overlook their obvious flaws. Then you find the band's not getting anywhere.
.

I honestly have been looking for the exact way to describe this guy....Ive never felt it said better. That exactly sums this guy up.

Anon La Ply 06-21-2012 12:54 PM

Re: How do you tell your frontman that we dont want him anymore?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper (Post 1014774)
I honestly have been looking for the exact way to describe this guy....Ive never felt it said better. That exactly sums this guy up.

I've had lots of time to think of the words ... he managed to destroy two bands I was in during the 80s with his unreliability, slackness and manipulative BS. But we can't forget the weak fools who persevered with him for years and let him wreck it all ... good that you weren't a fool!

For the record, "Nice to see ya, nice to see ya go" was the line the bar manager had at closing time about 30 years ago :)


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