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-   -   How best to kick some one out of the band? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60036)

matthew 03-15-2010 06:21 AM

How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
I need to tell a friend that he won't be the vocalist for a new band that I have started.

He is a friend but not a really close one, so I want to try and keep him a friend.

The reason for kicking him out could seem horrible, but it is because he is not good enough. It's not that he doesn't show interest, passion, or put in the work (if he didn't do those things, it would be easy), but rather vocally he just doesn't cut it.

If he played another instrument and we needed it I would recommend he do that instead. But unfortunately he doesn't.

I need to tell him this soon too, as I have left it for about 2 days days too long now... its dragging on...

Any advice or questions?

theindian 03-15-2010 06:33 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Don't wait any longer. That wastes not only your time but also the other persons. Just be up front with it, be honest & direct. Don't be a dick or be condescending but you have to do it. If its not going to work then the longer it drags on the worse it will be.

matthew 03-15-2010 06:41 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
thanks for that. just made the call..

went pretty well. i said:

a lot of the guys agree that the vocals were lacking last week, but i want to give you a fair chance and i know the amp we used wasnt great, you probably couldnt hear yourself and you were late which probably put you in a bad mindset. lets try again next week and we will see how it goes.

he was cool about it, infact he said he agreed. so its done.

thanks for you help,

sorry it was too quick to let any one else give advice!

diosdude 03-15-2010 07:01 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Dude, are you sure you kicked him out? 'Cause it sounds like you're giving him another shot next week.

It should go something like this:

Hey man, to be perfectly blunt and not beat around the bush, you're just not working out with us. We have a very good idea of what we should sound like and you're just not where we need you to be, musically.

And he would ask, "wha...what??? What-do-ya-mean?????"

And then you need to be brutally honest:

"Dude, we think you SUCK!!!!!" Now, quit wasting our time, if you wanna hang out, help us carry our gear to gigs and maybe do beer runs for us during practice that's cool but you can't hold a note in a bucket and you certainly can't carry our band anymore"

That's just an example of how it's done so that there's no question of your intent. Probably how i would handle the sitch.






Just for clarification, the second part was just A JOKE, People, just chill out. I would definitely say the first part just about verbatim up to the "not where we need you to be, musically" part.

DrumEatDrum 03-15-2010 07:03 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Be direct and 100% honest.

matthew 03-15-2010 07:50 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
I was honest.

i was planning on having him back for next week anyway.

I have told him what every one is thinking, and that next week he will either sing well or we will kick him out... that's what I have said, and its true.

if I wasn't a mate with the guy I would have told him no straight away, but he knows that he might possible not be in the band after next week and i wanted to make sure he felt that he has a fair go.

thanks for your input so far!

Fuzrock 03-15-2010 08:05 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 676344)
Dude, are you sure you kicked him out? 'Cause it sounds like you're giving him another shot next week.

It should go something like this:

Hey man, to be perfectly blunt and not beat around the bush, you're just not working out with us. We have a very good idea of what we should sound like and you're just not where we need you to be, musically.

And he would ask, "wha...what??? What-do-ya-mean?????"

And then you need to be brutally honest:

"Dude, we think you SUCK!!!!!" Now, quit wasting our time, if you wanna hang out, help us carry our gear to gigs and maybe do beer runs for us during practice that's cool but you can't hold a note in a bucket and you certainly can't carry our band anymore"

That's just an example of how it's done so that there's no question of your intent. Probably how i would handle the sitch.

That seems a little harsh. Funny, but harsh. You can help us carry our gear and do beer runs? Are you for real?

I had to fire a guitar player about a month ago. Not because he isn't a good player but because he was a jerk and made being in a band not fun. I just asked him if he had respect for the other guys in the band because he sure didn't act like it. In the end, I told him to shape up or ship out. He ended up shipping out. He offered to stick with us for a little while longer to cover some dates but I told him we already had a guy on standby. That felt good.

Dreaded Skull 03-15-2010 10:29 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Just be honest. Thats the best way .
Good luck Buddy!

muckypops 03-15-2010 10:42 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
LOL we has a guitar player who was just awful but super nice and mild mannered. when I told him he was out he rattled off some resume about how great and musically educated he is and said everybody in the band sucks (except me, who made the phone call). It was f'n hilarious because it was so ironic and unexpected.

diosdude 03-16-2010 04:03 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by muckypops (Post 676543)
LOL we has a guitar player who was just awful but super nice and mild mannered. when I told him he was out he rattled off some resume about how great and musically educated he is and said everybody in the band sucks (except me, who made the phone call). It was f'n hilarious because it was so ironic and unexpected.

That's another thing, it should always be FACE TO FACE. Not over the phone, not an email or text, and not as a notification on Myspace (Which by the way, if that member has access to your myspace account ALWAYS CHANGE THE PASSWORDS TO YOUR SOCIAL NETWORKS BEFORE YOU AXE THAT MEMBER- Myspace, Facebook, etc.- Trust me on that!!!!)

Jeff Gordon #24 03-16-2010 08:27 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 676344)
Dude, are you sure you kicked him out? 'Cause it sounds like you're giving him another shot next week.

It should go something like this:

Hey man, to be perfectly blunt and not beat around the bush, you're just not working out with us. We have a very good idea of what we should sound like and you're just not where we need you to be, musically.

And he would ask, "wha...what??? What-do-ya-mean?????"

And then you need to be brutally honest:

"Dude, we think you SUCK!!!!!" Now, quit wasting our time, if you wanna hang out, help us carry our gear to gigs and maybe do beer runs for us during practice that's cool but you can't hold a note in a bucket and you certainly can't carry our band anymore"

That's just an example of how it's done so that there's no question of your intent. Probably how i would handle the sitch.

Honestly, diosdude, If I were gonna kick someone out of a band, I WOULDN'T do it this way...especially face-to-face. NO WAY, Jose'! Not the way I would handle the "sitch". There's always a way to be civil about it, and this way would never work. Though, I DO agree that you have to be honest about it. Just NOT this cruel.

But with your most recent post above, I absolutely agree with you 100%! No doubt about it.

Moldy 03-16-2010 11:41 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
I've seen pictures of dios' kit... he must be a metalhead. Not room for subtlety in the metal world! :P

Pollyanna 03-16-2010 12:31 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
I've been watching this thread with interest to see how people approached it. I've never kicked anyone out of a band. Instead I just left if I felt it wasn't what I wanted or I had a better offer.

I guess I didn't have the balls. Not sure what excuse some of my male former bandmates' would use, though ...

Dios is just engaging in a little artistic licence IMO. If someone sucks, then why play with them in the first place? Unless, of course, the band sucks in general, in which case you'd want to choose your words a bit more carefully - maybe something like "Dood, you suck more than we do".

The rules sound similar to relationship breakups - be straightforward, do it face-to-face, don't be cruel, give best wishes. Reading Dios's response makes me almost wish I was a metal-head. It sounds like an uncomplicated way of life :)

pbloxam 03-16-2010 06:39 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 676748)
I've been watching this thread with interest to see how people approached it. I've never kicked anyone out of a band. Instead I just left if I felt it wasn't what I wanted or I had a better offer.

I guess I didn't have the balls. Not sure what excuse some of my male former bandmates' would use, though ...

Dios is just engaging in a little artistic licence IMO. If someone sucks, then why play with them in the first place? Unless, of course, the band sucks in general, in which case you'd want to choose your words a bit more carefully - maybe something like "Dood, you suck more than we do".

The rules sound similar to relationship breakups - be straightforward, do it face-to-face, don't be cruel, give best wishes. Reading Dios's response makes me almost wish I was a metal-head. It sounds like an uncomplicated way of life :)

There is never any reason to insult...Telling someone they suck is an insult....

Being professional is what it's about...A simple, "It's not working out" would be better...

The insult can get the individual fired up!! We once told a guitarist it wasn't working and he decided to handle it immaturely threatening to bust up all the gear in the studio...

We simply told him he wouldn't like the outcome as there are 3 of us and only one of him for one, and the police will handle the rest...

He left without a problem...

Ian Williams 03-16-2010 07:04 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
With common courtesy but firm. Please, can you leave?

Drums101 03-17-2010 02:50 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
GET OUT OF MY BAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moldy 03-17-2010 11:38 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
THIS. IS. SPARTA.

And then you kick him down a very deep well.

toddy 03-17-2010 12:25 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
tell him that he isn't right for the band that you want to play in? if he actually gets angry because of this then there's something wrong with him. if he's a proper musician then he'll just go and join another band anyway. maybe he already has other bands he can play with that you don't know about? (i didn't read the rest of the thread).

be sincere and say sorry like you mean it.

Pollyanna 03-17-2010 01:03 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moldy (Post 677103)
THIS. IS. SPARTA.

LOL

You see, it's like this ... you know I love you to bits. You're awesome. Just that ... look, I'm sorry. It's not you - it's me. The band has been through a rough time and we're just not ready to commit to you right now. Another time, another place, who knows? But for now we just really need our space, maybe jam with other people.

Really, you're a wonderful human being and I'm sure you will make another band very happy.

PS. I think Dios's approach is more kind :)

diosdude 03-17-2010 01:31 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Gordon #24 (Post 676703)
Honestly, diosdude, If I were gonna kick someone out of a band, I WOULDN'T do it this way...especially face-to-face. NO WAY, Jose'! Not the way I would handle the "sitch". There's always a way to be civil about it, and this way would never work. Though, I DO agree that you have to be honest about it. Just NOT this cruel.

But with your most recent post above, I absolutely agree with you 100%! No doubt about it.

Ah... 'tis a much CRUELER thing to let someone float through life wasting other artist's time because of DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR. Hey, some people can bounce back, work harder and practice more and the "how-do-ya-like-me-now?" motivation could be just what they need. It has been my experience though that when it comes to vocalists/ singers, as in the case of the original poster, you've either got it or you don't. No amount of practice is going to make a truly poor singer into a great one so the best thing to do to those people is shut them down and crush any singing ambitions from their heart-of-hearts. You see THOSE people at nickel beer Karaoke every Tuesday at the Come On Inn.

toddy 03-17-2010 01:43 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
you know you have a very valid point dios, nicely put.

diosdude 03-17-2010 01:45 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moldy (Post 677103)
THIS. IS. SPARTA.


ROFL!!! LMFAO!!!!! I'm using this one next time.


http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...tes/sparta.jpg

Jeff Gordon #24 03-17-2010 01:51 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 677153)
Ah... 'tis a much CRUELER thing to let someone float through life wasting other artist's time because of DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR. Hey, some people can bounce back, work harder and practice more and the "how-do-ya-like-me-now?" motivation could be just what they need. It has been my experience though that when it comes to vocalists/ singers, as in the case of the original poster, you've either got it or you don't. No amount of practice is going to make a truly poor singer into a great one so the best thing to do to those people is shut them down and crush any singing ambitions from their heart-of-hearts. You see THOSE people at nickel beer Karaoke every Tuesday at the Come On Inn.

I agree with you for the most part, diosdude. But what is gained by being confrontational at the point of letting someone know that their services aren't needed any longer? Especially when they're right there, in person. Uhhh...awkward.

I've always thought that you can get more with sugar than you can with vinegar. And this philosophy has worked for me much more than it hasn't.

Besides, you may regret being so brazen in your way of dropping a band mate more than you realize. And the next thing you know, you're dead of lead poisoning.

Not to be corny but, you may wanna treat others like YOU wanna be treated. Most of the time, pain won't follow that practice.

diosdude 03-17-2010 02:46 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Gordon #24 (Post 677160)
I agree with you for the most part, diosdude. But what is gained by being confrontational at the point of letting someone know that there services aren't needed any longer?

I've always thought that you can get more with sugar than you can with vinegar. And this philosophy has worked for me much more than it hasn't.

Besides, you may regret being so brazen in your way of dropping a band mate more than you realize. And the next thing you know, you're dead of lead poisoning.

Not to be corny but, you may wanna treat others like YOU wanna be treated. Most of the time, pain won't follow that practice.


If i truly sucked at something, i would want someone to tell me so. I would rather be the guy that is cruel to someone's face and let them know that they were awful than be the "nice guy" who tries to nourish and encourage a lost cause to that person's face and then privately, behind their back on some internet forum rant about how awful that person was and how great a guy i was for not hurting their feelings.

Tough love.

Honesty is the best policy, not saying you have to be cruel, but for god's sake, I'm a man, treat me like a man, if you have criticism, let me have it, i can take it and i can't grow without it.

But as moldy pointed out, I'm a metalhead. Maybe if i played kid's music or light adult contemporary I'd try Pollyanna's "It's not you, it's me, we should see other bands" thing, lol.

Pocket-full-of-gold 03-17-2010 03:03 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 677177)
Maybe if i played kid's music or light adult contemporary I'd try Pollyanna's "It's not you, it's me, we should see other bands" thing, lol.

Yeah, do it Dude.....pleeeease do it.......I wanna see you do a kids music or adult contemporary gig with THAT kit!!

Thaard 03-17-2010 03:13 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Make him play rythm-guitar.

Jeff Gordon #24 03-17-2010 03:26 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 677177)
If i truly sucked at something, i would want someone to tell me so. I would rather be the guy that is cruel to someone's face and let them know that they were awful than be the "nice guy" who tries to nourish and encourage a lost cause to that person's face and then privately, behind their back on some internet forum rant about how awful that person was and how great a guy i was for not hurting their feelings.

Tough love.

Honesty is the best policy, not saying you have to be cruel, but for god's sake, I'm a man, treat me like a man, if you have criticism, let me have it, i can take it and i can't grow without it.

But as moldy pointed out, I'm a metalhead. Maybe if i played kid's music or light adult contemporary I'd try Pollyanna's "It's not you, it's me, we should see other bands" thing, lol.

Hey d...honest positive criticism is fine. But to downright blast someone for the sake of being honest is NOT the best way to handle this.

I'm guessing you're probably not as old as I am. So I give you the benefit of the doubt. You haven't been on this earth as long as I have, and your experiences have really not backfired on you like it has with some of us who've gone through this "sitch", as you call it.

I can assure you it's NOT in anyone's benefit to be harsh to the intended individual when confronted with this awkward situation. You can succeed in accomplishing the intended outcome without resorting to a mean-spirited parting of ways. Which, in turn could create a potentially "hazardous" outcome, if it's done with disrespect and ill-intent. Like pbloxam says, there's no reason to insult.

Every action causes an opposite and equal reaction. So you may wanna be a bit on the "civil" side here. And this CAN be accomplished without sacrificing honesty.

I do believe that you and I are not too far from agreeing with each other, diosdude. Just a slight difference of opinion. So there's really not much more I can say about this.

Good Luck

muckypops 03-17-2010 03:34 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
I think the whole conversation about how dios proposed kicking out a band mate is maybe kinda theoretical in nature anyway. I highly doubt he would treat someone like that to their face unless he just truly didn't like them as a person. When it comes down to it I think he'd show him more respect than just telling him he sucks and to get out. Nobody is that ignorant in real life without consequences and repercussions.

diosdude 03-17-2010 05:07 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by muckypops (Post 677197)
I think the whole conversation about how dios proposed kicking out a band mate is maybe kinda theoretical in nature anyway. I highly doubt he would treat someone like that to their face unless he just truly didn't like them as a person. When it comes down to it I think he'd show him more respect than just telling him he sucks and to get out. Nobody is that ignorant in real life without consequences and repercussions.

I had to edit my original post so you guys would chill out, again, IT'S A JOKE, PEOPLE, JUST RELAX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Gordon #24 (Post 677192)
Hey d...honest positive criticism is fine. But to downright blast someone for the sake of being honest is NOT the best way to handle this.

I'm guessing you're probably not as old as I am. So I give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm 38 years old, been in about a dozen all-original bands and about 4 or 5 cover bands so i'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt because you're probably not as good a judge of character or experience as you might think you are. Seriously, your condescending tone in your post is personally offensive. You may be 76 years old and have jammed with Jan and Dean, George Thoroughgood, Carole King and toured as Neil Peart's drum tech, but don't assume i just fell off the turnip truck. I've tried the nice guy approach on a few occasions, for example when our crack-head rhythm guitarist was recording our album with us and he kept f#@%ing up all of the riffs. I suggested to the studio engineer/ studio owner, "Hey man, let's just let Mike (my lead guitarist) do Tony's tracks". I got talked out of it because "well, he's part of the band and if he's helping to pay for the album don't you think if he's he deserves to be on the album?" My initial thought was, "no, he's going to srew up the track". Long story short, the album got ruined because of the guy, he didn't pay a cent, we kicked him out a few weeks later and i got "chump" stamped on my forehead. So again, how exactly did being the nice guy in this SITCH end up being the right thing to do???

Jeff Gordon #24 03-17-2010 10:22 PM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 677235)
I had to edit my original post so you guys would chill out, again, IT'S A JOKE, PEOPLE, JUST RELAX.



I'm 38 years old, been in about a dozen all-original bands and about 4 or 5 cover bands so i'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt because you're probably not as good a judge of character or experience as you might think you are. Seriously, your condescending tone in your post is personally offensive. You may be 76 years old and have jammed with Jan and Dean, George Thoroughgood, Carole King and toured as Neil Peart's drum tech, but don't assume i just fell off the turnip truck. I've tried the nice guy approach on a few occasions, for example when our crack-head rhythm guitarist was recording our album with us and he kept f#@%ing up all of the riffs. I suggested to the studio engineer/ studio owner, "Hey man, let's just let Mike (my lead guitarist) do Tony's tracks". I got talked out of it because "well, he's part of the band and if he's helping to pay for the album don't you think if he's he deserves to be on the album?" My initial thought was, "no, he's going to srew up the track". Long story short, the album got ruined because of the guy, he didn't pay a cent, we kicked him out a few weeks later and i got "chump" stamped on my forehead. So again, how exactly did being the nice guy in this SITCH end up being the right thing to do???


You lost me at "condescending" and "personally offensive".

And I'M not a good judge of character?


In short...never mind.

Pollyanna 03-18-2010 01:08 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Whaaaat? It's a joke???

Damn Dios, you were this far from being my hero ...

Jeff Gordon #24 03-18-2010 02:04 AM

Re: How best to kick some one out of the band?
 
Oh, it's a joke.


ta hee


See, just when you think it's a "how to" thread and you try to help, thinking it's a serious question, somebody throws you a "curve ball" and reveals that's it's all "in jest".

That the original question of the thread, by matthew, was NOT him needing any suggestions about how best to kick someone out of a band after all.

Hmm...the joke's on me then. My bad.

Sorry matthew. I took it as an actual serious question. I apologize for the confusion.

I fell for that 100%.

Dang, you guys are good!


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