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drummerBUMMER 03-08-2010 04:02 PM

Yin yang thing
 
i was just wondering is it true that melody cannot exist without rhythm and vice versa, relating to yin yang philosophy...correct me if im wrong, i believe that melody cannot exist without rhythm otherwise it d just be noise of a certain pitch and rhythm without melody wud have no dynamics...

jonescrusher 03-08-2010 04:19 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Well observed. Take any famous melody, play the right notes in the right order but without the correct rhythm and it'll sound unrecognisable. So many of the great melodies are simple and very similar to each other; the only thing that seperates them is the rhythm.

alparrott 03-08-2010 06:09 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
It's not exactly a yin-yang thing, but more of a building block thing in my opinion. Rhythm can exist without melody, while as stated melody cannot exist without rhythm. So melody builds upon rhythm.

Pollyanna 03-08-2010 08:37 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 673882)
It's not exactly a yin-yang thing, but more of a building block thing in my opinion. Rhythm can exist without melody, while as stated melody cannot exist without rhythm. So melody builds upon rhythm.

Al, you could also say that all rhythms have a melody of sorts - just not necessarily very engaging or obvious ones.

Have a look at Aydee's link in the OP: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=59738

From Wikipedia's article on melody:
While in both most popular music and classical music of the common practice period pitch and duration are of primary importance in melodies, the contemporary music of the 20th and 21st centuries pitch and duration have lessened in importance and quality has gained importance, often primary.

Examples include musique concrete, klangfarbenmelodie, Elliott Carter's Eight Etudes and a Fantasy which contains a movement with only one note, the third movement of Ruth Crawford-Seeger's String Quartet 1931 (later reorchestrated as Andante for string orchestra) in which the melody is created from an unchanging set of pitches through "dissonant dynamics" alone, and György Ligeti's Aventures in which recurring phonetics create the linear form.

alparrott 03-09-2010 02:48 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
In the sense that all sounds have pitches, sure; but I would classify most sounds as either tonal (melodic) or percussive (rhythmic).

You can make a rhythm out of one sound, with practically unidentifiable or indistinguishable tonal properties. But my point is, melody is composed of tones (notes) set to rhythmic structures.

larryace 03-09-2010 03:07 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
A melody consisting of multiple notes at the same pitch is still a melody though, no?

Pollyanna 03-09-2010 03:26 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 674055)
In the sense that all sounds have pitches, sure; but I would classify most sounds as either tonal (melodic) or percussive (rhythmic).

You can make a rhythm out of one sound, with practically unidentifiable or indistinguishable tonal properties. But my point is, melody is composed of tones (notes) set to rhythmic structures.

Sure, your definitions work for me in regard to conventional Western music, which would cover all practical means and purposes for 99.9% of western musicians. My response is about looking the question in a theoretical sense whereas you're taking a practical approach. Each approach has its worth, depending on context.

DrumEatDrum 03-09-2010 04:18 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 674055)
In the sense that all sounds have pitches, sure; but I would classify most sounds as either tonal (melodic) or percussive (rhythmic).

You can make a rhythm out of one sound, with practically unidentifiable or indistinguishable tonal properties. But my point is, melody is composed of tones (notes) set to rhythmic structures.

99.9% of the time, correct.

Some new age music, often refereed to as space music, is often pretty absent of rhythm. Melodies flow into each other with out any set rhythm. But it's clearly more of en exception.

alparrott 03-09-2010 05:22 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 674079)
99.9% of the time, correct.

Some new age music, often refereed to as space music, is often pretty absent of rhythm. Melodies flow into each other with out any set rhythm. But it's clearly more of en exception.

Can the absence of a pattern be construed as a pattern? Then can the absence of a rhythm be construed as a rhythm? This strains pretty hard at what definitions of rhythm and melody are. I'd love to hear someone with an advanced degree in music theory or composition give their .02.

MikeM 03-09-2010 07:30 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 674235)
Can the absence of a pattern be construed as a pattern? Then can the absence of a rhythm be construed as a rhythm? This strains pretty hard at what definitions of rhythm and melody are. I'd love to hear someone with an advanced degree in music theory or composition give their .02.

Okay, I'm going to get really stupid here, but here goes...

Take the weather as an example. There's not so much of a discernible pattern day to day. It seems almost random and not very predictable - especially out further than just a few days. But when taken in context of seasons, the emergence of a pattern or a predictable rhythm becomes apparent.

That's just an earthly example. If we want to get spacey like new age... aw, nevermind!

Pollyanna 03-09-2010 09:32 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 674262)
Okay, I'm going to get really stupid here, but here goes...

Take the weather as an example. There's not so much of a discernible pattern day to day. It seems almost random and not very predictable - especially out further than just a few days. But when taken in context of seasons, the emergence of a pattern or a predictable rhythm becomes apparent.

That's just an earthly example. If we want to get spacey like new age... aw, nevermind!

Oh come now, Mike. we all know that the Weather Bureau predicts it with perfectly every time!

alparrott 03-10-2010 04:10 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
...this is when Graham Chapman marches onscreen dressed as the Colonel and goes, "Right, stop that! This is just too silly!"

DrumEatDrum 03-10-2010 04:59 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 674235)
Can the absence of a pattern be construed as a pattern? Then can the absence of a rhythm be construed as a rhythm? This strains pretty hard at what definitions of rhythm and melody are. I'd love to hear someone with an advanced degree in music theory or composition give their .02.

Possibly.

Steward Copland mused something similar once in an interview some years back.
Something to effect of "even it's one beat per 100 years, it's still a rhythm.."

I won't ponder to guess. I just know it's one of the few types of music that doesn't make me start tapping, air drumming, or otherwise trying to play the rhythm in my head or on any near by source. LOL.

DrumEatDrum 03-10-2010 05:02 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 674262)
Okay, I'm going to get really stupid here, but here goes...

Take the weather as an example. There's not so much of a discernible pattern day to day. It seems almost random and not very predictable - especially out further than just a few days. But when taken in context of seasons, the emergence of a pattern or a predictable rhythm becomes apparent.

That's just an earthly example. If we want to get spacey like new age... aw, nevermind!

You know, that was a pretty awesome attempt at showing how something without a pattern has a pattern.

Because even in the example I gave, the "songs" still have a starting point and ending point. And from that, parts can be predicted.

So yeah, I think you kind of nailed it.

Pollyanna 03-10-2010 08:18 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 674435)
You know, that was a pretty awesome attempt at showing how something without a pattern has a pattern.

Because even in the example I gave, the "songs" still have a starting point and ending point. And from that, parts can be predicted.

So yeah, I think you kind of nailed it.

This is like saying there's a reason for everything that happens, whether we know the reason or not. However chaos theory makes such predictions beyond the realm of the practical.

If a chimp plays a series of random notes on the piano, we will have a melody of sorts but rhythm implies some level of repetition, which is unlikely. You could perhaps run it through a program that could detect commonalities but that would be impractical. It would be easier and make more sense to add a synth backing and random percussive sounds and call it Etude Obliquitie a la Pan Troglodytes No 1.


Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrot
...this is when Graham Chapman marches onscreen dressed as the Colonel and goes, "Right, stop that! This is just too silly!"

Al, silly is what I do :) There's probably a reason for that as well Did you ever notice that your username is kind of connected to mine - parrot ... Polly? And we both draw cartoons. Serendipity perhaps? Is there a reason? Sorry, I'm being silly again :)

MikeM 03-10-2010 12:45 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674475)
This is like saying there's a reason for everything that happens, whether we know the reason or not. However chaos theory makes such predictions beyond the realm of the practical.

Is there not a reason for everything that happens, whether we know it or not? Purpose, on the other hand...
Quote:

If a chimp plays a series of random notes on the piano, we will have a melody of sorts but rhythm implies some level of repetition, which is unlikely. You could perhaps run it through a program that could detect commonalities but that would be impractical. It would be easier and make more sense to add a synth backing and random percussive sounds and call it Etude Obliquitie a la Pan Troglodytes No 1.
I like this example. It seems very fitting because while I don't play with chimps, I do play with some close relatives of theirs known as "chumps" and that's exactly how I approach playing with them: they plink away on their little strings or whatever doing who-knows-what while I try to hold down a beat - although, perhaps curiously, it is me that's making the grunting noises (hmmm, better look into that...).

Pollyanna 03-10-2010 01:13 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 674510)
Is there not a reason for everything that happens, whether we know it or not? Purpose, on the other hand...

I didn't phrase that well and made it look as though I was disagreeing. Actually I was just boiling it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 674510)
I like this example. It seems very fitting because while I don't play with chimps, I do play with some close relatives of theirs known as "chumps" and that's exactly how I approach playing with them: they plink away on their little strings or whatever doing who-knows-what while I try to hold down a beat - although, perhaps curiously, it is me that's making the grunting noises (hmmm, better look into that...).

In an ideal world we're not playing with chimps or chumps, but with champs :) Is GD your father? hehe

Moving back to the topic at hand ... my thoughts on Yin & Yang and music have generally been more more drum-centred. It occurred to me while watching an Aaron Spears video one time that his playing was intensely masculine - full of power and speed in what I see as a classic male display. I remember being knocked out by Rob Hirst's drumming in my teens - all power, speed and biceps, with mucho sweat. It was a pretty sexy display from this side of the fence.

Then I thought about the women drummers I've heard, not to mention my own drumming, and a lot of us (including me) seem to be influenced by the fact that nearly all prominent modern drummers of my era were men. So you get "monster" female players like Terri-Lynne Carrington and Cindy Blackman, who basically play like guys (the equivalent of the power suit in the corporate world).

Exceptions are Moe Tucker and Meg, whose playing I see as clearly feminine in approach, in that there's zero "display" and zero ego. It's 100% about supporting the song the other musicians ... they don't even try to slip in any sneaky clever bits, which is something I try to do (with varying success). It definitely feels good when I lay back with an ostinato and let everyone else ride over it, though.

Not saying "this is good and that is bad" - just noticing. It's all good IMO

DrumEatDrum 03-10-2010 05:53 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674475)

If a chimp plays a series of random notes on the piano, we will have a melody of sorts but rhythm implies some level of repetition, which is unlikely. You could perhaps run it through a program that could detect commonalities but that would be impractical. It would be easier and make more sense to add a synth backing and random percussive sounds and call it Etude Obliquitie a la Pan Troglodytes No 1.

But if you record the chimpls playing, slice it up into smaller loops, then you could cut and paste the parts into something very rhythmic, and then make a video and it becomes a Youtube senseation and a dance floor hit in England........ :-P

Pollyanna 03-11-2010 07:24 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 674594)
But if you record the chimpls playing, slice it up into smaller loops, then you could cut and paste the parts into something very rhythmic, and then make a video and it becomes a Youtube senseation and a dance floor hit in England........ :-P

Nice bit of resourcefulness, DED.
Did you ever hear Adrian Belew's album, Lone Rhino? The closer, The Final Rhino, consisted of some lucky piano doodling by his 4 year-old daughter (while he held the sustain pedal down). He recorded swell guitar over the top to tie it together and - voila! - instant composition.

DrumEatDrum 03-11-2010 07:28 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674876)
Nice bit of resourcefulness, DED.
Did you ever hear Adrian Belew's album, Lone Rhino? The closer, The Final Rhino, consisted of some lucky piano doodling by his 4 year-old daughter (while he held the sustain pedal down). He recorded swell guitar over the top to tie it together and - voila! - instant composition.

Nice!

On the Van Halen album "Balance" there is one "song" that is nothing but Eddie Van Halen drunk, dropping things on the inside of his piano. Although I'm not really sure why they included that on an otherwise awesome album. hahaha

Pollyanna 03-11-2010 07:44 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 674878)
Nice!

On the Van Halen album "Balance" there is one "song" that is nothing but Eddie Van Halen drunk, dropping things on the inside of his piano. Although I'm not really sure why they included that on an otherwise awesome album. hahaha

I expect for the usual reason - it seemed like fun at the time :)

Then there's Crimson's Thela Hun Ginjeet where Bob Fripp covertly recorded Adrian B babbling nervously when he returned to the studio after a close call with muggers on the street.

One-off accidental elements of music are like photos of an unaware / unselfconscious subjects - often it will be nonsensical but when it's good the sincerity makes it great. Hence WC Field's famous line, "Never work with animals or children" ... apart from being messy and chaotic, they also tend to steal the show.

MikeM 03-11-2010 07:50 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674889)
Then there's Crimson's Thela Hun Ginjeet where Bob Fripp covertly recorded Adrian B babbling nervously when he returned to the studio after a close call with muggers on the street.

I always wondered about that. He sounded authentic and maniacal. There was something weird about it. He was relating a story and that's what it was, but I had no idea that that was the story behind it. Cool.

aydee 03-11-2010 08:12 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674876)
Nice bit of resourcefulness, DED.
Did you ever hear Adrian Belew's album, Lone Rhino? The closer, The Final Rhino, consisted of some lucky piano doodling by his 4 year-old daughter (while he held the sustain pedal down). He recorded swell guitar over the top to tie it together and - voila! - instant composition.

I think the album was called SEXY RHINO, Pol,

Pollyanna 03-11-2010 08:19 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 674899)
I think the album was called SEXY RHINO, Pol,

Abe, Sexy Rhino was one of the songs but the album was Lone Rhino. It was one of the 500+ records I had in the Paleozoic Era. Whatever, the album was full of rhinos :)

Mike, here is Adrian B's blog entry about Thela Hun Ginjeet.

aydee 03-11-2010 08:24 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674901)
Abe, Sexy Rhino was one of the songs but the album was Lone Rhino. It was one of the 500+ records I had in the Paleozoic Era. Whatever, the album was full of rhinos :)

My correction stands corrected..yes, lots of prehensile whammy bar grunts and snorts, if I remember correctly. Very rhino.

BassDriver 03-11-2010 11:16 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

A melody consisting of multiple notes at the same pitch is still a melody though, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY-FG-hj7zU

Haha, kinda like that.

I don't see melody and rhythm as yin and yang.

Melody cannot exist without rhythm, but rhythm can exist without a comprehensible melody.

...I don't consider a single stroke roll on a snare drum a melody for example.

Don't see melody as a musical element on its own, it is a combination of rhythm and pitch for each note.

Rhythm (syncopation, swinging, phrasing, metre, and what not)
Pitch
Timbre (character of sound)
Dynamics

Those are the fundamental elements of music.

Without rhythm there is no note produced in the first place, each note has a happening and a duration, applies to percussion aswell.

Pollyanna 03-11-2010 01:34 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 674903)
My correction stands corrected..yes, lots of prehensile whammy bar grunts and snorts, if I remember correctly. Very rhino.

Yup, Adrian goes crazy to extract whatever sound he's shooting for. Especially the title track - a rather nice confluence of conservationism and an excuse to make animal sounds.

BD, there is still an element of melody when you play a single stroke on a snare drum, despite a strong element of noise (no idea if it's white or pink noise - or purple for that matter). After all, if you hit a rimshot, it's a higher pitched note.

Melody certainly can exist without comprehensible rhythm (the qualifier you used). Think Tangerine Dream or Stomu Yamashta or Frippertronics or John Cage.

aydee 03-11-2010 01:50 PM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Agree with Polly,BD. Chk out some Tuvan throat singing, Tibetan Chants, or even some ancient Gregorian hymns which are pretty much pure drones with no perceptible breaks in them.

Pol, looks like we were checking out ol Stomu's album at the same time. Crossing the line was my favorite. Winwood sang it, right?

Pollyanna 03-11-2010 02:31 PM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 674970)
Agree with Polly,BD. Chk out some Tuvan throat singing, Tibetan Chants, or even some ancient Gregorian hymns which are pretty much pure drones with no perceptible breaks in them.

Pol, looks like we were checking out ol Stomu's album at the same time. Crossing the line was my favorite. Winwood sang it, right?

Go was a great album, wasn't it? Crossing the Line was my fave too - gorgeous vocal (yes, it was SW) and that beautifully building solo by, I think, Pat Thrall. Michael Shrieve was great throughout.

Loved the space music too ... close your eyes and drift away ... SY and Eno were huge influences on me when I was playing with sequencers in the 80s.

alparrott 03-11-2010 03:24 PM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 674475)
Did you ever notice that your username is kind of connected to mine - parrot ... Polly? And we both draw cartoons. Serendipity perhaps? Is there a reason? Sorry, I'm being silly again :)

No coincidence. We're separated at birth.

Pollyanna 03-12-2010 02:55 AM

Re: YIN YANG THING!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 674999)
No coincidence. We're separated at birth.

Why wasn't I told about this?! You shoulda told me, um ... bro' ... ?

How spooky is that - you and I were a Yin/Yang package before separation.

alparrott 03-12-2010 08:25 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
And that doesn't even account for the drumming...!

Pollyanna 03-12-2010 08:40 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 675335)
And that doesn't even account for the drumming...!

haha, oh yeah ... forgot about that. How's your memory, Al?

Pollyanna 03-12-2010 12:03 PM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
3 Attachment(s)
Thing is, melody and rhythm can be teased apart. See attached:

1. A well-known melody played normally

2. Same melody, different placement of notes to create a completely different song

3. Same melody again, played arrhythmically.

alparrott 03-12-2010 06:58 PM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna (Post 675337)
haha, oh yeah ... forgot about that. How's your memory, Al?

Frightening. I can memorize huge lists of info, and I still remember how to play songs I learned in high school back in the 80's. I know most of the actors in every movie and TV series I've ever watched, know what year all of Rush's studio albums were released, and still have some left over to memorize all the vital stats of the 20-someodd people who work with me. Why... how's yours ;)

Pollyanna 03-14-2010 01:47 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 675478)
Frightening. I can memorize huge lists of info, and I still remember how to play songs I learned in high school back in the 80's. I know most of the actors in every movie and TV series I've ever watched, know what year all of Rush's studio albums were released, and still have some left over to memorize all the vital stats of the 20-someodd people who work with me. Why... how's yours ;)

What was the question again??

The other day I was cleaning up my SMSs and found a reminder to attend an optometrist appointment on the 1st of March. I can't even blame the good times (not that they would have helped) because when I was little Mum used to tell me I was like the absent-minded professor. Ah, the joys of ADHD.

Maybe we're not conjoined twins after all?

Is everyone talked out on melody and rhythm?

alparrott 03-14-2010 06:31 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Possibly yes. Nobody wants to intrude on this magic moment of reunion.

In the meantime, I used our conversation to make a comic book character.
http://gbk-sayonara.thecomicseries.com/blog/

Here's the bottom line: melody and rhythm are so intertwined, only the very fringes of music will try to use the one without the other.

Pollyanna 03-14-2010 07:50 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 675985)
In the meantime, I used our conversation to make a comic book character. http://gbk-sayonara.thecomicseries.com/blog/

Gee, you draw well, Al. You also appear to have a sick mind - another likeness!

Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 675985)
melody and rhythm are so intertwined, only the very fringes of music will try to use the one without the other.

Really well put. They aren't necessarily codependent but they usually are. Kind of like women and men, really, so in that sense the Yin/Yang idea still holds.

alparrott 03-14-2010 08:52 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Thanks, Grea. Back to the point: Sure we can separate melody and rhythm in theory, but in practice, why would we want to?

There's method and metamusical ability that makes the idea tempting, but really, who will that appeal to? The fringe .002% of music theory majors?

Let's make people move, and dance, and react emotionally... like *I* started out making music to do, anyways!

Pollyanna 03-14-2010 09:20 AM

Re: Yin yang thing
 
Cos when we loosen things up we can do cool soundscapes like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzqg7K87GJU

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVN_mxVntXk

And I'm not a music major :) Great for soundtracks too. It's a minority interest, for sure, but someone has to cater for those minorities!


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