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-   -   Drums and Guns (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58710)

Skulmoski 02-12-2010 04:16 PM

Drums and Guns
 
I loved the bumpersticker: Drums not guns. But, I found on bongomania.com the following:

Most percussion instruments we find in music shops in the US and Europe were manufactured in a factory in Thailand. Some of the different brands are actually made in the same factory. Furthermore, the Kaman corporation now owns LP, CP, World Beat, Matador, Toca, and Gibraltar, so really some of our so-called choices just fatten one big corporate pocket. Many people don't realize that Kaman also manufactures parts for missiles, bombs, and other military equipment. They are proud of their military business.http://www.bongomania.com/eng/articles/selecting.html

I wonder if this is still true. Does it matter to you?

GJS

larryace 02-12-2010 04:27 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Do I care....I should care I suppose...but military stuff is essential, so what are you gonna do? Make your own stuff? We need armies too unfortunately.

keep it simple 02-12-2010 04:44 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I don't use any of those brands so it's not an issue for me. As a general point, I would certainly refrain from doing business with any organisation I believed to be trading unethically.

jeffwj 02-12-2010 04:53 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
This topic is most likely going to get too hot. I am not going to add fuel to the fire, just clarification. I checked to see if it were true and yes, it is the same Kaman - not two separate companies with the same name.

http://www.kaman.com/history/history_p.html

Before the post gets out of hand - maybe posts in this thread from now on should only be from people who live in countries that don't own helicopters or any other military equipment.

Food for thought.

Jeff

keep it simple 02-12-2010 05:02 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffwj (Post 664128)
Before the post gets out of hand - maybe posts in this thread from now on should only be from people who live in countries that don't own helicopters or any other military equipment.

Food for thought.

Jeff

Do we have any members in Outer Mongolia?

caddywumpus 02-12-2010 05:27 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I buy most of my music gear used, so I suppose I'm not fattening the pockets of those companies directly...

T.Underhill 02-12-2010 05:50 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
If you have problems purchasing products from companies that have ties or have in the past in any way to military equipment production you'll have a tough time. I think drum gear is the least of your worries. Get real people. Let me ask the people here...what kind of car do you drive??

Skulmoski 02-12-2010 06:01 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T.Underhill (Post 664146)
If you have problems purchasing products from companies that have ties or have in the past in any way to military equipment production you'll have a tough time. I think drum gear is the least of your worries. Get real people. Let me ask the people here...what kind of car do you drive??

I hear ya. I met a person who refused to buy anything from the PRC. She found it extremely difficult buy things made elsewhere and spent a ton of money to do so.

GJS

drumtechdad 02-12-2010 06:18 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
All my guns are made in the USA. Well, 'cept the Glock.

audiotech 02-12-2010 07:48 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drumtechdad (Post 664166)
All my guns are made in the USA. Well, 'cept the Glock.

Ours are too, except for the Glocks, they're from Austria. We make it a point not to drum when we shoot and not to shoot when we drum. Completely independent of one another, lol.

Dennis

drumtechdad 02-12-2010 08:00 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
They'll have to pry the drumsticks from my cold, dead hands. ;-)

GRUNTERSDAD 02-12-2010 08:20 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I have permission to carry all of my hand drums concealed.

And do we know what other companies that make hardware that may be making parts for their military?

Doesn't bother me one way or another. I'm sure someone out of work would not mind working for a comonay that made both
musical instruments and military parts

donv 02-12-2010 08:31 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I carried both Ludwig and Pearl in the service. Believe it or not we even had some loud brass from Canada! Canada! They're just too nice and polite to make anything brass.

RollingStone000 02-12-2010 08:32 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Unfortunately that's just the way large businesses/corporations work in the modern day, there's just so much cross-relation (the proper term isn't coming to me at the moment) with the government and the private sector and other countries for that matter (don't even get me started on the red hoard that is China). What can you say, Eisenhower was right. Then again without the military being involved in industry I don't think we'd be as technologically advanced in the modern era. Look at satellite communications for example.

Vipercussionist 02-12-2010 08:35 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD (Post 664209)
I have permission to carry all of my hand drums concealed.

And do we know what other companies that make hardware that may be making parts for their military?

Doesn't bother me one way or another. I'm sure someone out of work would not mind working for a comonay that made both
musical instruments and military parts

As it stands, I also have a FULL drum kit in the trunk, fully concealed. No one suspects a thing, but when they LEAST expect it, I'm gonna pull it out and FLAM on it.

It's gonna make SOMEONE jump scared!!!

audiotech 02-12-2010 09:15 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
It's your constitution right to be able to carry your hand drums concealed, you just need a very large coat. I believe it's in the 27th amendment or something like that.

Dennis

Steady Freddy 02-12-2010 09:24 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

diosdude 02-12-2010 09:31 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Do not discuss politics or religion on DW. Please refer to the forum rules before posting.

audiotech 02-12-2010 10:48 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 664240)
Do not discuss politics or religion on DW. Please refer to the forum rules before posting.

I guess we're OK then??

Dennis

BassDriver 02-13-2010 12:18 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Do not discuss politics or religion on DW. Please refer to the forum rules before posting.
This isn't about religion or politics, this is about corporatations and ethics.

Quote:

LP, CP, World Beat, Matador, Toca, and Gibraltar
Sabian should belong to that list aswell.

Vipercussionist 02-13-2010 01:50 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steady Freddy (Post 664235)
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

I support keeping to the right and baring my arms.

bobdadruma 02-13-2010 01:59 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
If you think about it Drums and Guns have a long history together.
Drummers always played as they marched with armies.

Pollyanna 02-13-2010 02:02 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
No one's said it so I will ... BANG BANG! :)

It's hard to know the right thing to do - there are so many behind-the-scenes links. How about our superannuation investments? With the constant rounds of backroom wheeling and dealing who knows what some massive parent company that owns the subsidiary conglomerate that owns the company that your super funds are investing in?

Of course it's fair enough to make spending decisions based on ethical considerations and to make people aware of the links when you find out. I'm glad none of my gear is of any of those brands, even if my taxes go into defence spending. I don't want to spend more in the warfare industry than I have to.

Steady Freddy 02-13-2010 02:09 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipercussionist (Post 664328)
I support keeping to the right and baring my arms.


Oh yeah, I knew it was something like that. I got it all messed up.

Thanks!

MikeM 02-13-2010 02:34 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Being the tree-hugging dirt-worshipper that I am, I'm more concerned about taking North American Maple, putting it on a ship bound for the other side of the planet (China) so that they can churn out a drum (using dubious labor practices and environmental ethics), and then putting it back on a ship bound for my favorite music store.

I would rather buy American (and pay more), not so much because I'm so patriotic or concerned about keeping jobs here, but because I'd rather keep the whole operation in my own backyard where I know there are laws to protect against exploitation of human and natural resources, and to prevent a lot of unnecessary shipping. I prefer to buy locally when I can because there's such an external cost for the inexpensive stuff coming out of China.

For example: Ludwig talks about how long it takes to produce a Black Beauty because the black nickel plating is so toxic, and takes time and care to apply. Plus, there are costs associated with disposing of the waste and whatever. But no body thinks twice about the imported variety, like the Pork Pie BBBs and Pearl Brass Sensitones (which I own) coming out of China for less than half the price. Think they're being as careful in dealing with the same toxic issues where the laws might not be as stringent ?

Anyway, I'm more concerned about this angle than I am any military one, to tell you the truth.

bobdadruma 02-13-2010 02:45 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Not buying from China may seem like something that one can do if one wants to. The reality is that all but a few manufacturers at least use something on their kits that was made in China. You really wouldn't know if the lugs were made there or not for example. You don't know if the same company forges components for weapons.
Many US companies that make things that we use everyday also manufacture for military.
Software companies that write a program that is in your computer could have written a program for a weapon system.

MikeM 02-13-2010 02:52 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 664351)
Not buying from China may seem like something that one can do if one wants to. The reality is that all but a few manufacturers don't at least use something on their kits that was made in China.

That's very true, you can only do what you can do.

Skulmoski 02-13-2010 04:51 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diosdude (Post 664240)
Do not discuss politics or religion on DW. Please refer to the forum rules before posting.

I hope this post did not offend you diodude or anyone else. I have read the rules about posting. One could make a case that this post is political (with a small "p") rather than about consumer choice; however, it is very much related to the purchasing choices we have. This post is in the same vein as previous discussions about buying American made drums or from last fall about supporting your independent music dealer.

I have very few drums and percussion from large corporations because I like to support independent artisans and businesses. I have 9 or 10 drums from Drumskull drums, 3 frame drums from Cooperman, bongos from Matt Smith, a string cajon from Fat Congas and many others from annonymous drumsmiths from Morocco, Egypt, Pakistan, India, Kuwait and Africa. All of these drums are also works of art and instruments with a voice; lovingly made by another drummer or artisan. When possible I prefer to put my money into the pockets of independent artisans and businesses: once the backbone of an economy. Who wouldn't want a Brady kit or Matt Nolan cymbals anyway!

If this thread is offensive to most, then I will be the first to ask Bernhard that it be removed. I am not interested in offending anyone; I am only interested in discussing a drum related issue and hearing different opinions of the DW community. I hope we are still friends diosdude! PM if you like.

Respectfully submitted

GJS

bobdadruma 02-13-2010 05:00 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I think that almost everyone got the concept of your thread Skulmoski.
It is the kind of thread that could have gone either way.
People who brought up forum policy only helped keep the thread from going wrong.

donv 02-13-2010 05:44 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 664347)
Being the tree-hugging dirt-worshipper that I am, I'm more concerned about taking North American Maple, putting it on a ship bound for the other side of the planet (China) so that they can churn out a drum (using dubious labor practices and environmental ethics), and then putting it back on a ship bound for my favorite music store.

I would rather buy American (and pay more), not so much because I'm so patriotic or concerned about keeping jobs here, but because I'd rather keep the whole operation in my own backyard where I know there are laws to protect against exploitation of human and natural resources, and to prevent a lot of unnecessary shipping. I prefer to buy locally when I can because there's such an external cost for the inexpensive stuff coming out of China.

For example: Ludwig talks about how long it takes to produce a Black Beauty because the black nickel plating is so toxic, and takes time and care to apply. Plus, there are costs associated with disposing of the waste and whatever. But no body thinks twice about the imported variety, like the Pork Pie BBBs and Pearl Brass Sensitones (which I own) coming out of China for less than half the price. Think they're being as careful in dealing with the same toxic issues where the laws might not be as stringent ?

Anyway, I'm more concerned about this angle than I am any military one, to tell you the truth.

I don't know how old you are, or if you're aware of this issue, but back in the 70's and 80's chrome plating was a big issue because of phosphates. The growth of the likes of Tama and Pearl had a lot to do with this. Because of changes in enviornmental regulations here, a lot of work went overseas. Because of the lack of regulations the plating quality was alot better with the imports. It definetely came at a cost though. This was discussed more then once in the drum and music magazines at the time.

Skulmoski 02-13-2010 06:43 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 664387)
People who brought up forum policy only helped keep the thread from going wrong.

A point well taken; having followed this community for a while, most of our members have only the best intentions at heart.

GJS

Strangelove 02-13-2010 08:33 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 664347)
For example: But no body thinks twice about the imported variety, like the Pork Pie BBBs and Pearl Brass Sensitones (which I own) coming out of China for less than half the price. Think they're being as careful in dealing with the same toxic issues where the laws might not be as stringent ?

Yes, this mindset with American consumers caused the ultimate collapse of Ludwig (Chicago) Slingerland (Chicago) , Rogers (Cleveland), and Gibson (Kalamazoo) in the 1970s, and ushered in the Japanese competition, which was replaced by Pacific Rim manufacturing (or suncontracting from American, European, and Japanese concerns), and then by Chinese manufacturing. I listen to all the bitching and complaining from kids today about cymbal prices and think that an average Avedis Zildjian in the 1970s would cost about $700 in today's prices. Now who would be paying that kind of money today for a cymbal, handmade or not? It all starts with what the consumers are willing to pay. And the last thing on anybody's mind is environmental issues - if anybody really cared, we would have quit buying mahogoney a long time ago.

BassDriver 02-14-2010 01:25 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
If you want to extra sure, make a drum yourself, carve it out of a tree and use yarn (as opposed to possibly Chinese made lugs) to hold the heads to the drum...let's see how easy that is...

...unfortunately, that is why mass-production exists.

...what gets is me is you would think that all this importing to and fro would make a drumset so expensive, yet to buy a 5 pc Spirit Drums or Brady Drums made in Australia from Australian wood, simply transported to another place in Australia using no glues to hold the shell together costs one over $5000...

...again, the wonders of the free market...

CCdrummer 03-04-2010 05:54 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Drums and guns together? It just doesn't get any better than this!

rogue_drummer 03-11-2010 11:25 PM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I know I'm gonna get blasted for this, BUT...

I believe in a strong military. I live in the US, Texas specifically. Do I love a military industrial complex? I believe a strong military needs stronger checks and balances just like any other entity. I think a nation has the right to have a strong military to protect itself from enemies, both foreign and domestic and it has the right to defend itself. However, I don't believe it has the right to threaten another nation or invade another nation for purely self interests. And I believe a nation has the right to acquire as many high tech weapons as it can in order to protect its citizens, both overtly and covertly. And I also believe a nation has the right to have a strong intelligence community to ensure it remains sovern.

The fact a company can produce military hardware and still manufacture drums doesn't bother me.

There, I said it.

Pollyanna 03-12-2010 02:57 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Drums and guns are a terrible combination. Who can afford to keep replacing heads?

Better to use drum sticks, folks.

brady 03-12-2010 05:07 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
I don't know about you all, but as a USAF veteran and supporter of our Second Amendment, I am actually more inclined to support Kaman due to their military affiliation. I guess I'll be buying those LP congas and that Gibraltar rack afterall...

Pocket-full-of-gold 03-12-2010 05:56 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skulmoski (Post 664115)
I loved the bumpersticker: Drums not guns.

I'm yet to see anyone die of a 'rimshot' wound!!

Pavlos 03-12-2010 06:05 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skulmoski (Post 664115)
Furthermore, the Kaman corporation now owns LP, CP, World Beat, Matador, Toca, and Gibraltar, so really some of our so-called choices just fatten one big corporate pocket. Many people don't realize that Kaman also manufactures parts for missiles, bombs, and other military equipment.

I wonder if this is still true. Does it matter to you?

GJS

Yes it does matter to me. I will not be buying any products from those companies. Elaborating any further without getting polical would be almost impossible.

I would just rather buy products from a company that manufactures things that are used to create, not destroy.

Deathmetalconga 03-12-2010 07:22 AM

Re: Drums and Guns
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM (Post 664347)
Being the tree-hugging dirt-worshipper that I am, I'm more concerned about taking North American Maple, putting it on a ship bound for the other side of the planet (China) so that they can churn out a drum (using dubious labor practices and environmental ethics), and then putting it back on a ship bound for my favorite music store.

I would rather buy American (and pay more), not so much because I'm so patriotic or concerned about keeping jobs here, but because I'd rather keep the whole operation in my own backyard where I know there are laws to protect against exploitation of human and natural resources, and to prevent a lot of unnecessary shipping. I prefer to buy locally when I can because there's such an external cost for the inexpensive stuff coming out of China.

For example: Ludwig talks about how long it takes to produce a Black Beauty because the black nickel plating is so toxic, and takes time and care to apply. Plus, there are costs associated with disposing of the waste and whatever. But no body thinks twice about the imported variety, like the Pork Pie BBBs and Pearl Brass Sensitones (which I own) coming out of China for less than half the price. Think they're being as careful in dealing with the same toxic issues where the laws might not be as stringent ?

Anyway, I'm more concerned about this angle than I am any military one, to tell you the truth.

Very well put. I agree. Stuff made in Asia or Latin American usually has a lot of mud and blood on it.


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