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bobdadruma 08-14-2008 04:12 PM

Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads. I think that the answer lies in respect for all that use this forum. I also think that a possible solution to this issue would be the establishment of a Christian Social Group for the Christians to hold their discussions. I don't see people of other religious orientations discussing their beliefs in the main forums. Ofending people and imposing religious agendas isn't what Drummerworld is about. I am tolerant and respectful of all peaceful people of all religious denominations. I wish love, peace and understanding to all people of the world.

Leadfoot 08-14-2008 04:14 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
There are plenty of forums on the web for religious discussions, politics too. Those discussions don't belong here, they only breed arguments and insults.

aydee 08-14-2008 04:28 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I think the rules of drummerworld explicitly state that no religious or political discussions are permitted for the reasons already mentioned. They inevitably deteriorate into a slanging match that gets abusive & personal.

Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians.


...If wishes were horses ..and Aydee had Tony's flams....

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 04:30 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leadfoot (Post 469609)
There are plenty of forums on the web for religious discussions, politics too. Those discussions don't belong here, they only breed arguments and insults.

I agree. That is the main problem that I have seen from this activity.

jamndrummer 08-14-2008 04:32 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Seems to me now that you brought up the religious topic by starting this thread and then pointing out only Christians are doing the offending. Well, maybe if you and others feel like this it might be better to take it offline with the Mods and Bernard, state your feelings and then let them decide. Then they should be the ones who decide who can say what on this forum. After all there is an off topic section on this forum?

mrchattr 08-14-2008 04:35 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I actually thought that the mods made a good decision in keeping the one thread open. It became, at first, a focal point for all religious discussion that happened on this board. It was one thread, and you can put it on ignore if you don't like it, that kind of thing.

But I agree with you. It's gotten out of hand. It seems like every thread I read has someone saying something Christ-oriented.

Most of it seemed to stem from one guy, RhythmJunkie. He promised he would stop. Hopefully, it goes away after that. If not, well, the rules do forbid it...and I would support the enforcement of those rules, even if it led to me getting in trouble for the one thread I did participate in.

stasz 08-14-2008 04:35 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469614)
...If wishes were horses ..and Aydee had Tony's flams....

We can dream, can't we?

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 04:37 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
"Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians." Quote from aydee

Yes,. That is why I suggested a Social Group for the purpose of the spiritual connection between music and religion

jamndrummer 08-14-2008 04:40 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

bobdadruma
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southbury Ct.
Posts: 122

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians."

Yes,. That is why I suggested a Social Group for the purpose of the spiritual connection between music and religion
__________________
One persons jazz is another persons rock and roll. I find jazz in all that I see and hear.
Very well put. Stated like this will open up great doors for all religions and how they feel it relates to music with their beliefs.

aydee 08-14-2008 04:55 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by youenjoy00myself (Post 469621)
We can dream, can't we?


LOL! I've been having the same dream for a while now ( or a recurring nightmare.... I flam when I'm not supposed to, : )

stasz 08-14-2008 05:00 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469631)
LOL! I've been having the same dream for a while now ( or a recurring nightmare.... I flam when I'm not supposed to, : )

Well, all I've been practicing lately is my high school's marching show. 5 high school snare drummers trying to play together?? Every note might as well be a flam. lol

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 05:02 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
It would be nice to hear Bernard's thoughts on this issue. I think that it would also be interesting to see the views on the spiritual links between religion and music expressed in a forum that is dedicated to that purpose.

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 05:16 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrchattr (Post 469620)
I actually thought that the mods made a good decision in keeping the one thread open. It became, at first, a focal point for all religious discussion that happened on this board. It was one thread, and you can put it on ignore if you don't like it, that kind of thing.

But I agree with you. It's gotten out of hand. It seems like every thread I read has someone saying something Christ-oriented.

Most of it seemed to stem from one guy, RhythmJunkie. He promised he would stop. Hopefully, it goes away after that. If not, well, the rules do forbid it...and I would support the enforcement of those rules, even if it led to me getting in trouble for the one thread I did participate in.

I don't feel that anyone should "Get in Trouble" For what has happened. I would just like to see a resolution to this issue. I also was taken in and I posted to one of the threads. It was after I posted that I realised that I was offending some people.

Jon Cable 08-14-2008 05:18 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Yeah great thoughts guys BUT...religion and politics breed resentment and cause rows and nastiness etc I think the 'christian drummer' thread was left alone as it was more about the drummers who are devout and the amount of work they get.
The rules on here have always been no religion, no politics and be nice, I personally don't see any need to change them; Im sure there must be the sort of socio-religious group that you suggest somewhere else on the web. Just my 5 cents [thats me burning in hell again!!]

Deltadrummer 08-14-2008 05:36 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Cable (Post 469642)
Yeah great thoughts guys BUT...religion and politics breed resentment and cause rows and nastiness etc I think the 'christian drummer' thread was left alone as it was more about the drummers who are devout and the amount of work they get.
The rules on here have always been no religion, no politics and be nice, I personally don't see any need to change them; Im sure there must be the sort of socio-religious group that you suggest somewhere else on the web. Just my 5 cents [thats me burning in hell again!!]


I agree 100% Jon. It does seem to me that when there are happening religious or political discussion on one thread, the nastiness starts to leak over to the others.

Bernhard 08-14-2008 05:37 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 469635)
It would be nice to hear Bernard's thoughts on this issue. I think that it would also be interesting to see the views on the spiritual links between religion and music expressed in a forum that is dedicated to that purpose.

My thought is, that i feel uncomfortable with religious topics her at DW. I always must have an eye at them to make sure, they don't get out of hands..and they tend to go so sooner or later.....

We don't delete them at first...in fact the rules say we should.

Anyway:
Threads in the off topic lounge are deleted and brushed off from time to time without further notice. So be sure to backup meaningful thoughts all the time, before they're gone.

Yes, is great for some to have a forum dedicated to religious questions.
Not at Drummerworld of course, but there are so many out there already - good Links?

Bernhard

aboylikedave 08-14-2008 05:47 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Agree with Bernhard about being uncomfortable with purely religious topics for threads (as opposed to just religious references).

But for the record I actually also get a bit peeved by lots of references as well - it can be annoying for drummers of other faiths or of no faith or angostics or atheists to see Christian stuff pop up all over the place spoken as if it is a normal world view, when it is not normal in many parts of the drumming community both globally and locally.

However I also understand that they are not trying to wind anyone up and I actually find the discussions about drumming in Churches very interesting.

Censorship is a rocky road so I would vote for a) a reiteration of the 'no religion rule' and be b) really just ignore it. As someone once said 'They know not what they do!'

Peace.

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 06:10 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
It is obvious from reading Bernhard's response that he has to make some difficult decisions in this area. I don't envy him for that. Thank you Bernhard for sharing your wisdom with us on this issue.

Deathmetalconga 08-14-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 469608)
There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads. I think that the answer lies in respect for all that use this forum. I also think that a possible solution to this issue would be the establishment of a Christian Social Group for the Christians to hold their discussions. I don't see people of other religious orientations discussing their beliefs in the main forums. Ofending people and imposing religious agendas isn't what Drummerworld is about. I am tolerant and respectful of all peaceful people of all religious denominations. I wish love, peace and understanding to all people of the world.

The thing is, everyone wants to talk about Christianity. In some of the other threads about religion and drumming, some people would try to move the conversation into the realm of spirituality and music, but people on all sides of the issue kept dragging it back to Christianity. That may reflect the largely Western makeup of the board.

There is a deep historical connection between religion, spirituality and music. Some religions believe that music is one of the ways to attain higher spiritual levels, or to more closely approach the divine. In many societies, music does not exist outside of worship. In the West, we are more secular and music can serve completely different purposes, recreational, marketing, etc. Yet the close relationship between music and the divine (as some people choose to believe/call it) persists for many musicians and audience members.

There are many, many other religions and they all have a fascinating relationship with music and their larger culture. This is getting more into anthropology and that may be a safer place to discuss the connection between faith and music - as long as believers and nonbelievers alike are willing to acknowledge the existence of non-Christian religions.

I do not favor a strict, uneducated approach that says, "No discussion of religion of any kind." Music has been with humankind for tens of thousands of years and there is much to learn from that rich history.

rendezvous_drummer 08-14-2008 06:19 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 06:24 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aboylikedave (Post 469650)
Agree with Bernhard about being uncomfortable with purely religious topics for threads (as opposed to just religious references).

But for the record I actually also get a bit peeved by lots of references as well - it can be annoying for drummers of other faiths or of no faith or angostics or atheists to see Christian stuff pop up all over the place spoken as if it is a normal world view, when it is not normal in many parts of the drumming community both globally and locally.

However I also understand that they are not trying to wind anyone up and I actually find the discussions about drumming in Churches very interesting.

Censorship is a rocky road so I would vote for a) a reiteration of the 'no religion rule' and be b) really just ignore it. As someone once said 'They know not what they do!'

Peace.

Good Point! My fundamental belief is that censorship is wrong. I agree that we also have the freedom to ignore what we don't want to read or talk about. I saw many people who couldn't ignore it. They were lashing out at the people who they disagreed with and that was causing problems. I also agree that the Christians were not trying to "Wind anyone up".

gmrakich 08-14-2008 06:27 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
It's very simple really. Bernhard does not like it or want it so don't do it. Respect the mans wishes.

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 06:40 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rendezvous_drummer (Post 469660)
Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?

I wasn't ofended. I was pointing out that other people were ofended. I found the treads interesting. My main question was do they belong in the main forums?

mrchattr 08-14-2008 06:55 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rendezvous_drummer (Post 469660)
Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?

The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive.

Jeff Almeyda 08-14-2008 07:47 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I like the unwritten bar rule: "No religion and no politics".

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 07:48 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrchattr (Post 469674)
The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive.

Thank you, those are examples of the type of offensive behavior that I was speaking of. People didn't like or want to see someone's religious view so they responded with a post that was deliberatly ment to offend the other posters.

zambizzi 08-14-2008 08:07 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I have Tony's flams...on video...

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 08:28 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I would like to point out that this forum is viewed by young children from all around the world. What we say here is read by them. We must always keep this in mind before we post material that could be seen as sensitive. As Bernhard has implied, we should limit our comments to the craft of percussion. There is no place here for controversial topics. They will only serve to discredit this forum.

GRUNTERSDAD 08-14-2008 08:33 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
...and I only have flims.

I have been accused many times, not on here, of being very black and white. On this subject, I admit to it, No Religion or Politics. No one is hurt, nor offended.

aydee 08-14-2008 08:40 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zambizzi (Post 469715)
I have Tony's flams...on video...

..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...

kwolf68 08-14-2008 08:46 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
I have some SERIOUS issues with religious people, but them speaking freely isn't one of them.

Dystisis 08-14-2008 08:50 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469614)
I think the rules of drummerworld explicitly state that no religious or political discussions are permitted for the reasons already mentioned. They inevitably deteriorate into a slanging match that gets abusive & personal.

Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians.

Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

bobdadruma 08-14-2008 09:02 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dystisis (Post 469736)
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

With certain ground rules that would be Interesting, Educational and Appropriate.

burnthehero 08-14-2008 09:28 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
As a devout athiest, I find religious discussions to be more irrelevant and pointless than offensive. And, therefore not needed on this forum.

aydee 08-14-2008 09:35 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dystisis (Post 469736)
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, imo.

aydee 08-14-2008 09:38 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dystisis (Post 469736)
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, and debate imo.

zambizzi 08-14-2008 09:53 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469728)
..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...

I have Buddy's sour, constipated drumming face.

kwolf68 08-14-2008 10:00 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469758)
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

aydee 08-14-2008 10:06 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwolf68 (Post 469769)
You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

Well, we all believe in different things don't we ? It would all be rather predictable and boring otherwise.

And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.

Quote:

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' tripe., you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers
The best musicians believe music is sacred.

Also I think you missed my point completely. The God I was taking about was a metaphor for music.

Quote:

If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.
Not its not. Religion constrains some people and releases and empowers others.

There are no FACTS on this thread, only opinions and feelings. And I'm interested in sharing mine and reading about others ( till Bernhard shuts this thread down )

zambizzi 08-14-2008 10:08 PM

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee (Post 469775)
And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.

Oh man, that's good to hear. I've been a sweating, babbling, crazy-eyed insomniac for years....I'm obviously knee-deep in nirvana!


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