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Kinksdrummer 03-17-2014 06:19 PM

Sabian 60s sound
 
Hi there,

I'm about to do a big show about the Kinks and I've been told by production to pick them cymbals which look and sound right. I'm a Zildjian man through and through and knew exactly what I wanted... until I found out they have to be Sabian.

I'm looking for some 15" hats, a 17" and 19" crash and 20 or 21" ride. Mick Avory played vintage hand hammered zildjians, do Sabian have a line that look and sound like the early 60s? Ideally like the Zildjian K Constaninople/Kerope range?

All advice gratefully received!

Thanks

DrummingAllNightLong 03-17-2014 06:37 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Sabian HH look em up

SgtThump 03-17-2014 07:06 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
I think www.sabian.com should help to answer your question.

bermuda 03-17-2014 08:02 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Sound will be easy, although looks is another matter. Starting about 40 years ago, cymbals started sporting large logos, top and bottom. Nothing from today - unless it's modified - will really look like anything from the '60s. Then again, since they've specified Sabian, they're undoubtedly expecting the logos to be there.

Hats are easy, HH Regular Hats have a great, classic, 'average' (read: versatile) sound. Project aside, I think you'll like those hats.

Rides are somewhat subjective, if you can point me to a Kinks track ith the sound you want, I can make a suggestion.

Crashes are tricky, because nobody has quite captured the vibe of the '60s, despite some good efforts. Zildjian Armands are nice, but I think Sabian did them one better with the V-Crashes, which have a little more body to them. They're part of the AAX series, and have a classic Zildjian crash sound - not heavy, not thin, just very sweet. I have a full set (15-20") of their predecessor, the Vault Crash, and they go with me on just about every gig and session.

Good luck!

Bermuda

Kinksdrummer 03-18-2014 12:34 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Cheers Bermuda! Will check out those crashes and hats.

Ride wise, it's mainly the early albums ie from you really got me through to the 70s.

bermuda 03-18-2014 01:43 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Hmmm, hard to find any rides in there... Who'll Be The Next In Line and Tired Of Waiting were the most audible, with a fairly normal semi-pingy ride.

I'd look into an AA or HH Medium Ride, with a little wash. A 20" would be about right unless you find a 22" that speaks to you. All of my Sabian medium rides are 20" and sound right. Stay away from the Raw Bells and other 'special' models, stick with AA Medium or HH Medium.

Hope that helps!

Bermuda

cornelius 03-18-2014 04:41 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
These are pretty interesting:
http://www.maxwelldrums.com/sabian-c...06.html?page=2

I picked up a couple and they do in fact sound like old A's... No logos!

IDDrummer 03-18-2014 06:07 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelius (Post 1241855)
These are pretty interesting:
http://www.maxwelldrums.com/sabian-c...06.html?page=2

I picked up a couple and they do in fact sound like old A's... No logos!

Interesting that most of those are light weight - a lot of extra-thin, with the heaviest being medium-thin. Honestly, I think that is one of the biggest differences between cymbals of yesteryear and those of today. I know manufacturing processes have changed, but you can't make a heavy cymbal sound like a thin one, no matter how you hammer or lathe it, and many cymbals today are simply thicker than their older counterparts. I'm glad to see that changing somewhat.

JesusMySavior 03-18-2014 08:18 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
I may offend someone here, but if you're really looking for that grainy production sound go with B8s. At least for the crashes. Doesn't get any more lo-fi than that.

bermuda 03-18-2014 04:31 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusMySavior (Post 1241890)
I may offend someone here, but if you're really looking for that grainy production sound go with B8s. At least for the crashes. Doesn't get any more lo-fi than that.

The B8s can be quite sizzly and glassy, and not a typical sound of the '60s. I'd definitely seek the original sounds of the day, and the AA and HH are the most 'normal' of the Sabian lines. If the producers of the show want to do period-correct audio, that's up to them. The best the players can do is deliver the actual sounds that the Kinks (and their session guys) did back in the day. Tried to find a Bobby Graham studio pic from the era, but no luck so far.

I do find it odd that the producer would demand a particular brand though.

Bermuda

opentune 03-18-2014 05:55 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusMySavior (Post 1241890)
I may offend someone here, but if you're really looking for that grainy production sound go with B8s. At least for the crashes. Doesn't get any more lo-fi than that.

Not sure how you are equating grainy productions sound ( a studio attribute) with B8 alloy of a cymbal?
Moreover, B8 alloy is what was used for some of the 'classic rock' cymbals through the late 60's 70's... pro level Paiste GB'sand 2002s later on. I'm not sure how that qualifies as lo fi.

FlamFlamMan 03-18-2014 10:33 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opentune (Post 1241963)
Not sure how you are equating grainy productions sound ( a studio attribute) with B8 alloy of a cymbal?
Moreover, B8 alloy is what was used for some of the 'classic rock' cymbals through the late 60's 70's... pro level Paiste GB'sand 2002s later on. I'm not sure how that qualifies as lo fi.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't suggesting that B8 alloy is sonicly inferior, but rather talking about Sabian B8's, their entry level cymbal line.

The SunDog 03-23-2014 11:59 PM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Finding Sabians that sound likes vintage Zildjians should be a cinch. You are aware that the founder of Sabian was Robert Zildjian. The Sabian plant in Canada used to be a Zildjian plant. It and the right to use the Zildjian family metal formula were awarded to Robert in the late 70's as the result of a lawsuit. Please stick with cymbals that use B20 bronze, and don't worry too much about recreating some vintage sound. More than recreating some bygone era this drummer is going to want to sound good. In my opinion modern cymbals sound superior anyway. Sounding good is most important.

The SunDog 03-24-2014 12:07 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamFlamMan (Post 1242039)
I'm pretty sure he wasn't suggesting that B8 alloy is sonicly inferior, but rather talking about Sabian B8's, their entry level cymbal line.

I'll say it then. The 8 refers to the percentage of tin and silver in the alloy. B20 bronze is 20% tin/silver and is sonically superior. Better sound is why AA and HH cost three and four times as much, not metal value.

opentune 03-24-2014 12:40 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The SunDog (Post 1243725)
B20 bronze is 20% tin/silver and is sonically superior. .

Well only if you think Paiste 2002's or GB's, with 8% tin, pro level cymbals used by many pro level drummers, are 'sonically inferior'.
I'm sure you realize its also how the alloy is machined and treated, obviously not done cheaply for these lines.

bermuda 03-24-2014 12:54 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The SunDog (Post 1243719)
Finding Sabians that sound likes vintage Zildjians should be a cinch. You are aware that the founder of Sabian was Robert Zildjian. The Sabian plant in Canada used to be a Zildjian plant. It and the right to use the Zildjian family metal formula were awarded to Robert in the late 70's as the result of a lawsuit.

Except by that time, Zildjian was no longer making vintage-sounding cymbals (their A's typically did not sound the same as their predecessors from just 10 years prior) and Sabians didn't really possess the classic vibe, either. That's why both companies felt it necessary to introduce new lines to specifically capture the classic '60s sounds. Their 'normal' cymbals - A and AA - just aren't the same as they were (or would have been) back in the day.

Bermuda

The SunDog 03-24-2014 12:59 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opentune (Post 1243736)
Well only if you think Paiste 2002's or GB's, with 8% tin, pro level cymbals used by many pro level drummers, are 'sonically inferior'.
I'm sure you realize its also how the alloy is machined and treated, obviously not done cheaply for these lines.

Maybe that's why I've always hated Paistes :p Obviously everyone has different taste so I expected some dissent. I know I side with high end hammered cymbals. Zildjian and Sabian both sound excellent to me and both use the same B20 mixture in their top lines.

opentune 03-24-2014 02:18 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The SunDog (Post 1243742)
Maybe that's why I've always hated Paistes :p

Don't forget Paiste also do B20 .... the 602's and Twenties and Twenty Customs as well.
I'm not trying to defend them, or am a poster boy, as I own Sabians and Zildjians too.
Also IMO B8 alloy cymbals don't quite sound right in jazz or folky/indie stuff.

The SunDog 03-24-2014 02:30 AM

Re: Sabian 60s sound
 
I know Paistes are fine cymbals. Enough great drummers use them, I used to have a 602. I still don't like B8/B8 Pro, Scimitar, etc. (i used those too when was starting out).


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