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-   -   Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112794)

CCdrummer 12-22-2013 01:50 AM

Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
My speed is slowly improving, and I am beginning to notice that as I get a little bit faster, I am starting to perceive more space as far as time intervals between the notes. Therefore does this mean that time around me is passing more quickly relative to me as long as I play?

There is so much about theoretical physics and relativity that I just don't know!!!

MrInsanePolack 12-22-2013 02:01 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CCdrummer (Post 1210480)
My speed is slowly improving, and I am beginning to notice that as I get a little bit faster, I am starting to perceive more space as far as time intervals between the notes. Therefore does this mean that time around me is passing more quickly relative to me as long as I play?

There is so much about theoretical physics and relativity that I just don't know!!!

No. For time to slow down in terms of relativity, there has to be at least two observers. One must be travelling extremely fast for time distortion to become noticeable. At 50%c (c=speed of light), 1.0 seconds would seem like ~1.175 seconds. You don't reach 2.0 seconds until about 85%c. Unfortunately the world around you is not travelling that fast, and you are not as well. And you still lack another observer.

CCdrummer 12-22-2013 02:05 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
I didn't realize the time dilation would be that high at only 50% of c. I think I read that there is a measurable time dilation when the space shuttle returns, even though it has been traveling nowhere near that velocity.

So then would it help if I made someone watch me? : )

MrInsanePolack 12-22-2013 02:18 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
2 Attachment(s)
At 0.3km/s, that is the speed of a typical subsonic jet, time dilation would be 10^-6, or 1.000 000 000 000 5 seconds. I took this directly from my physics book.

The person watching you would still have to be moving.

Here are two charts for time dilation.

CCdrummer 12-22-2013 02:22 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Isn't that the lorentz equation?

Wow, I wasn't really serious about this thread, and now I am getting a bit more than I asked for!

MrInsanePolack 12-22-2013 02:43 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Sorry I like this stuff. It is fun to think about.

CCdrummer 12-22-2013 03:53 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Nothing to apologize for Mr. Polack, I appreciate the chart, very interesting to contemplate, as well as mind blowing.

wsabol 12-23-2013 10:05 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
The Lorentz equations and the special relatively concepts only apply when you are not accelerating. When your stick goes up and comes back down, its constantly accelerating, so I don't know the we can make these generalizations, but I may be wrong.

Also, you the player aren't really moving at all when you are playing singles, just your sticks, so you won't experience any of this if it were happening. I consider you, the play, the observer, and the sticks the relativistic object.. Just for the sake of argument, say you could play singles at relativistic speeds, as you play faster and faster, you wouldn't be able to perceive the increase in speed because the sticks are experience time dilation. Like when particles accelerate to speeds near the speed of light as those are eaten by a blackhole, an observe would see that cloud of particles slow down so much that light emitted by the particles would stretch into red-er wavelengths and you'll see the cloud fade away very slowly, very very slowly.

8Mile 12-23-2013 10:21 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
I can barely transcend my appetite for pizza, so I'm probably not going to put a dent in time or space.

Just tellin' it like it is,
8Mile

MrInsanePolack 12-23-2013 10:40 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211308)
The Lorentz equations and there special relatively concepts only apply when you are not accelerating. When your stick goes up and comes back down, its constantly accelerating, so I don't know the we can make these generalizations, but I may be wrong.

Also, you the player aren't really moving at all when you are playing singles, just your sticks, so you won't experience any of this if it were happening. I consider you, the play, the observer, and the sticks the relativistic object.. Just for the sake of argument, say you could play singles at relativistic speeds, as you play faster and faster, you wouldn't be able to perceive the increase in speed because the sticks are experience time dilation. Like when particles accelerate to speeds near the speed of light as those are eaten by a blackhole, an observe would see that cloud of particles slow down so much that light emitted by the particles would stretch into red-er wavelengths and you'll see the cloud fade away very slowly, very very slowly.

For relativity to be considered, someone has to be moving. There has to be two observers because changes in time and length are all relative to the individual observer. As one observer passes the other, they both experience the same thing relative to them. The person moving will observe no change in their state, but will observe time slowing down and length contraction of the stationary observer. The stationary observer will observe the same exact thing about the moving observer. Without a second observer, there is nothing relative to compare. It is like being both tall and short at the same time. It is only relative to the people you are standing next to. This can't happen if you are by yourself. As for sticks being an observer, this can't happen.

As for a black hole, you are correct, but nothing is actually slowing down. The red shift, and even blue shift in wavelengths is dependent on the position of the black hole and the light being sucked into it in relation to earth. The event horizon is what starts the bending of light into the black hole as it rotates around it, and why we see the shift in wavelength and subsequent stretching and slowing down of the light. There is a term for what this effect would be on the human body: spaghettification. We would be stretched and compressed simultaneously, while also being moleculerly destroyed into a singularity.

alparrott 12-23-2013 11:20 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Sorry, the conversation is very stimulating, but given the bent of the thread and especially the title, it couldn't be helped...

Pocket-full-of-gold 12-23-2013 11:31 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8


:-)

alparrott 12-24-2013 12:26 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold (Post 1211343)

And proud of it, man.

CCdrummer 12-24-2013 12:28 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211308)
The Lorentz equations and there special relatively concepts only apply when you are not accelerating. When your stick goes up and comes back down, its constantly accelerating, so I don't know the we can make these generalizations, but I may be wrong.

Also, you the player aren't really moving at all when you are playing singles, just your sticks, so you won't experience any of this if it were happening. I consider you, the play, the observer, and the sticks the relativistic object.. Just for the sake of argument, say you could play singles at relativistic speeds, as you play faster and faster, you wouldn't be able to perceive the increase in speed because the sticks are experience time dilation. Like when particles accelerate to speeds near the speed of light as those are eaten by a blackhole, an observe would see that cloud of particles slow down so much that light emitted by the particles would stretch into red-er wavelengths and you'll see the cloud fade away very slowly, very very slowly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1211319)
For relativity to be considered, someone has to be moving. There has to be two observers because changes in time and length are all relative to the individual observer. As one observer passes the other, they both experience the same thing relative to them. The person moving will observe no change in their state, but will observe time slowing down and length contraction of the stationary observer. The stationary observer will observe the same exact thing about the moving observer. Without a second observer, there is nothing relative to compare. It is like being both tall and short at the same time. It is only relative to the people you are standing next to. This can't happen if you are by yourself. As for sticks being an observer, this can't happen.

As for a black hole, you are correct, but nothing is actually slowing down. The red shift, and even blue shift in wavelengths is dependent on the position of the black hole and the light being sucked into it in relation to earth. The event horizon is what starts the bending of light into the black hole as it rotates around it, and why we see the shift in wavelength and subsequent stretching and slowing down of the light. There is a term for what this effect would be on the human body: spaghettification. We would be stretched and compressed simultaneously, while also being moleculerly destroyed into a singularity.

Hmmm, so I suppose the answer to my original question is "No"

Anon La Ply 12-24-2013 01:16 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Loving this thread :)

As we improve we seem to slice time more finely (subjectively) - we can make sense of more things within a smaller time period. The finer the slices, the more in the zone you are. That's why we have to leave performance to our unconscious mind - our conscious mind isn't fast enough.

And talking of speed, that light speed graph really makes things clear. So, if the average stroke is 10cm, then by my rough calcsmoving at the speed of light would work out to be around 179,875,474,800 bpm.

Matt and Tom eat your hearts out.

wsabol 12-24-2013 01:17 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1211319)
For relativity to be considered, something has to be moving relative to something else.

You keep losing me at this requirement that there most be two seemingly intelligent observers. If I'm sitting on a bench and I see a train fly be a relativistic speeds relative to me, I will still see all the appropriate relativistic effects on the train, regardless if there is someone on the train to see them happen to me.

If sticks are moving relative to you at relativistic speeds, you will definitely see relativistic effects, and they will certainly not be limited to time diluation. These sticks will be constantly accelerating so this situation falls under the relm of general relativity, not special relativity where Lorentz equations are as hard as it gets.

Objects are spaghettified as they enter a black hole because of the massive gravity differential across the length of the object that the black hole's gravity well creates.. doesn't have to be a human. The event horizon is the sphere the we would perceive as the black hole's "surface": the sphere surrounding the singularity that's volume is defined where the speed of light is less than or equal to the escape velocity of the black hole.

I feel like I could nit pick definitions(semantics) with you all day, but I won't, this isn't a physics forum, haha. Interesting problem OP. I imagine for two (very massive) sticks alternating are close to the speed light, we'd have a situation close to what happens when two black holes orbit each other are close proximity. The two gravity wells tangle up and do all kinds of crazy stuff, worm holes too if I remember correctly.

Anon: Great idea on the calcs. The way I see it, the stick accelerates coming up and coming down during the stroke. In other words, its 0 m/s at the top of the stroke (10 cm above head), 3e8 m/s as it heads the head. Its not just traveling 3e8 m/s the whole time :) Taking that into consideration, my calcs show that your stick will hit the head at the speed of light if you play 16th notes at 67,500,000,000,000,000,000 bpm.

Anon La Ply 12-24-2013 02:19 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211387)
The way I see it, the stick accelerates coming up and coming down during the stroke. In other words, its 0 m/s at the top of the stroke (10 cm above head), 3e8 m/s as it heads the head. Its not just traveling 3e8 m/s the whole time :) Taking that into consideration, my calcs show that your stick will hit the head at the speed of light if you play 16th notes at 67,500,000,000,000,000,000 bpm.

Excellent correction, badly needed :) Trouble is, I was thinking I had something to shoot at but those extra quadrillions are very dispiriting, a bit like the numbers young people see when hoping to enter the housing market. Maybe put a pair of sticks in the Large Hadron Collider? We might discover Gadd's Boson!

MrInsanePolack 12-24-2013 03:15 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211387)
I feel like I could nit pick definitions(semantics) with you all day, but I won't, this isn't a physics forum, haha. Interesting problem OP. I imagine for two (very massive) sticks alternating are close to the speed light, we'd have a situation close to what happens when two black holes orbit each other are close proximity. The two gravity wells tangle up and do all kinds of crazy stuff, worm holes too if I remember correctly.

Anon: Great idea on the calcs. The way I see it, the stick accelerates coming up and coming down during the stroke. In other words, its 0 m/s at the top of the stroke (10 cm above head), 3e8 m/s as it heads the head. Its not just traveling 3e8 m/s the whole time :) Taking that into consideration, my calcs show that your stick will hit the head at the speed of light if you play 16th notes at 67,500,000,000,000,000,000 bpm.

Wouldn't the sticks, in relation to one another, fall more under the Principal of Mass-Energy Equivalence (E=mc^2) as opposed to relativity of time? Relativity of time clearly states there must be two observers for time dilation to occur, and at least one of them must be in motion.

Are you calculating the bpm as the distance they travel or their resulting speed at that many strokes?

Anon La Ply 12-24-2013 04:18 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Mr Insane, my approach was to work on an average stick height and divide it into the speed of light per minute. Whatever, I don't think an Ambo would handle that kind of speed.

While we're being white and nerdy, a new element was added to the Periodic Table this year. It's called Ununpentium. Weird. Why not just call it Pentium?

wsabol 12-24-2013 04:30 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1211417)
Are you calculating the bpm as the distance they travel or their resulting speed at that many strokes?

I calculated the time it would take for the tip of the stick to accelerate from rest to 3e8 m/s over a distance of 10 cm. First you calculate the average acceleration, then the time. That's the time it'll take for the down stroke; the upstroke will take the same amount of time as the downstroke. Each stick does 2 upstrokes and 2 downstrokes per beat of sixteenths, so you can figure out how long each beat will be in seconds. You can work it out from there to get beats per minute.

Ah yes, Gadd's boson - the fundmental particle of the pocket. Lmao.

MrInsanePolack 12-24-2013 04:34 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply (Post 1211433)
Mr Insane, my approach was to work on an average stick height and divide it into the speed of light per minute. Whatever, I don't think an Ambo would handle that kind of speed.

While we're being white and nerdy, a new element was added to the Periodic Table this year. It's called Ununpentium. Weird. Why not just call it Pentium?

I think you are right about the head. Would probably either disintegrate or melt before anyone ever got there!

I just read an article about Ununpentium. They said its name means one-one-five. Fitting since its atomic number is 115 and has 115 protons. Probably useless in itself as its half-life is .89 miliseconds.

MrInsanePolack 12-24-2013 04:38 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211439)
I calculated the time it would take for the tip of the stick to accelerate from rest to 3e8 m/s over a distance of 10 cm. First you calculate the average acceleration, then the time. That's the time it'll take for the down stroke; the upstroke will take the same amount of time as the downstroke. Each stick does 2 upstrokes and 2 downstrokes per beat of sixteenths, so you can figure out how long each beat will be in seconds. You can work it out from there to get beats per minute.

Ah yes, Gadd's boson - the fundmental particle of the pocket. Lmao.

Okay, that's what I thought. That is a ton of strokes.

Anon La Ply 12-24-2013 12:41 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsabol (Post 1211439)
... the fundmental particle of the pocket.

LOL!

Mr IP, I imagine they'll fund a use for Pentium (I've made up my mind) ... maybe in nanotechnology, where 0.89ms is probably a long time.

CCdrummer 12-24-2013 06:39 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1211441)
I think you are right about the head. Would probably either disintegrate or melt before anyone ever got there!

I just read an article about Ununpentium. They said its name means one-one-five. Fitting since its atomic number is 115 and has 115 protons. Probably useless in itself as its half-life is .89 miliseconds.

Well, I think I read that they are using magnetic containment fields in the experimental fusion reactor that is being built in Southern France, in an attempt to contain the fusion reaction. Perhaps we could create some sort of magnetic field head?

Reggae_Mangle 12-26-2013 12:02 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Bad drummers, in particular, can transcend time and space. It makes it seem like every body in the band is off-time and should be somewhere else at that very moment.

tacobelle 05-11-2014 04:35 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggae_Mangle (Post 1212117)
Bad drummers, in particular, can transcend time and space. It makes it seem like every body in the band is off-time and should be somewhere else at that very moment.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

Mad About Drums 05-11-2014 10:03 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Whatever you're fast or slow, you'll reach Christmas at the same time as everyone else :)

lsits 05-12-2014 06:24 AM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
I already answered this question five years from now.

Mike_In_KC 05-12-2014 05:05 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
if you see this time signature get up and run....

http://mathmunch.files.wordpress.com...infinityjh.gif

caddywumpus 05-12-2014 05:21 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
I've noticed that my personal perception of tempo is skewed when I'm playing. When I'm playing something blazingly fast, it seems a medium tempo to me, and I hear each note, feel each sticking, can meditate to the space between the notes, etc. However, when I listen back to a recording of the show, I think to myself, "Holy crap! Is it REALLY that fast? Man, we should slow that tune down a hair..." Same thing with slow tunes, but the oppositie direction. "I thought it was slower." My only possible explanation is that while pushing the notes to either side of the beat (playing ahead or behind the beat) it makes time either stretch or constrict in my own mind. If playing ahead of the beat, the perception is that there is a lot more time to get the next note in, due to the little bit of extra time from playing the beat early, and vice versa for laying it back. The time and feel are good, but the perception of tempo is skewed, and listening to recordings is like awakening from the Matrix...

Diet Kirk 05-12-2014 05:31 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by caddywumpus (Post 1258680)
I've noticed that my personal perception of tempo is skewed when I'm playing. When I'm playing something blazingly fast, it seems a medium tempo to me, and I hear each note, feel each sticking, can meditate to the space between the notes, etc. However, when I listen back to a recording of the show, I think to myself, "Holy crap! Is it REALLY that fast? Man, we should slow that tune down a hair..." Same thing with slow tunes, but the oppositie direction. "I thought it was slower." My only possible explanation is that while pushing the notes to either side of the beat (playing ahead or behind the beat) it makes time either stretch or constrict in my own mind. If playing ahead of the beat, the perception is that there is a lot more time to get the next note in, due to the little bit of extra time from playing the beat early, and vice versa for laying it back. The time and feel are good, but the perception of tempo is skewed, and listening to recordings is like awakening from the Matrix...

There has to be some physiology/chemistry to this too I think.

For example when we are learning something that is faster than we can curently play, we train the muscles until they can cope. Eventually the muscles find this new speed easy and instead of having to concentrate each muscle movement, I think we feel the extra space, because we hit a point where we could actually activate the muscles for another note in between.

Add to this the adrenaline ie chemistry during gigs and I'm sure there is something too this.

However i am neither a physiologist or a chemist!

BillRayDrums 05-12-2014 05:40 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Record EVERYTHING. That's the only way to understand your own inner clock.

MrInsanePolack 05-12-2014 06:04 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillRayDrums (Post 1258688)
Record EVERYTHING. That's the only way to understand your own inner clock.

This isn't about inner clock. It is about the perception of time slowing down as we play faster. It's relativity for drummers.

BillRayDrums 05-12-2014 06:09 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1258693)
This isn't about inner clock. It is about the perception of time slowing down as we play faster. It's relativity for drummers.

No, I know exactly what it's about because I'm writing a chapter in my book about it. Regarding the "inner spring".

I practice with tracks all the time; stuff that I'm either going to record, or stuff that I've already recorded that is fun to play. Some days I get into the room and it's as if I cannot play fast enough to keep up, or some days I'm just running over the time and rushing everything. It's that perception thing. So when I say "record everything" it's more or less to create a snapshot of your perception of that moment.

MrInsanePolack 05-12-2014 06:19 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillRayDrums (Post 1258695)
No, I know exactly what it's about because I'm writing a chapter in my book about it. Regarding the "inner spring".

I practice with tracks all the time; stuff that I'm either going to record, or stuff that I've already recorded that is fun to play. Some days I get into the room and it's as if I cannot play fast enough to keep up, or some days I'm just running over the time and rushing everything. It's that perception thing. So when I say "record everything" it's more or less to create a snapshot of your perception of that moment.

Oh okay, that makes more sense. As your speed increases, the "inner spring" as you put it would stretch, and we become more aware of the space in between the coils. The spring itself does not actually stretch though, just our perception of it. I think I like the spring analogy. They should use that in Physics class for those who don't get the concept of relativity.

Reggae_Mangle 05-13-2014 01:31 PM

Re: Do drummers have the ability to transcend time and space?
 
How good are you at counting seconds? How many minutes before you go off? If you count again, will you be as accurate? I don't think anyone will be able to do it for very long with very consistency. As such, the same would hold true with respect to nailing the same song at the same bpm night after night. Bound to be some push and shove in that respect, it's all part of the feel of the performance. Slow night? Fast night? Drunk night? Who knows?

Time is all in your head, so the OP's question does make sense in some ways. It's like martial arts. The fastest wins. You're moving so fast, everything else seems to slow down around you. Bullet time, like the Matrix.


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