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masonni 11-14-2013 07:56 AM

Best mics for internal miking
 
Looking for some suggestions on internal mics.

I've been using a Beta 52 w/ the May internal mic system for many years now.
I love it, and it has and always will be a staple in my live performance.

For some time now I have wanted to install internal mics in my Toms, but I am at a loss as to what mics to use. Currently I own 2 Audix D2's and an Audix D4.
I was going to use the D2's in my 10" & 12" Toms and the D4 for my 16" Floor. (respectively getting a nother D4 for my 14" and maybe a D2 for my 13")

Randy May (founder of the May mic company) suggested that I use D4's in all of my rack toms and use kick mics in my Floors.
Not a bad idea, but it's expensive. I would have to buy 2 more D4's and 2 Bass Drum mics... lot-o-$ I don't have.

Wondering what the pros/cons would be to using the D2's I already have in the toms.
I'm thinking 10" & 12" get D2's, 13" gets a D4 and then maybe two inexpensive kick mics for the 14" & 16", but that leaves the question as to what kick mics?

Would a Shure PG52 or Audix F series be a good move?

Beta 52's and most standard kick mics (D112, D6, etc) are out of the budget at the moment. But I have found plenty of inexpensive bass drum mics online.
Good bargain to use as internal mics or not?

Bo Eder 11-14-2013 10:40 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
I think you should try an internal mic in a double-headed tom first before you commit. Remember Terry Bozzios' first instructional video from the 80s that he made after Missing Persons broke up? He had internal mics in those drums and it just wasn't a sound I liked. They sounded like liquid toms (for lack of a better description). This is probably why it's so popular in bass drums, but nobody attempts it in the other drums.

I think those Shure SM98 condensers on the gooseneck mounts clamped to the rim sound alot better.

AudioWonderland 11-14-2013 11:35 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Search YouTube for a Thomas Lang video on the May system he installed on a home studio kit. He speaks to what mics he chose and has called of the sounds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrC-JruZ-hs

masonni 11-14-2013 08:38 PM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
I'll check out those videos.

I read a lot of mixed reviews on internal mics, but a good number of them seem to be from guys who really didn't seem to have a lot of knowledge of drums. Mostly sound guys who do things one way all the time. Head selection, tuning, placement and mic selection, even the room your in all come into play with something like this. I find some sound engineers don't take the time to learn this kind of stuff, and unfortunately some drummers don't either.

Steven Perkins did a video for MAY with his internal mics and I remember liking the sound in that, but it can also be eq'ed all to hell, so who knows?

drstrangefunk 11-14-2013 10:44 PM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by masonni (Post 1197994)
Looking for some suggestions on internal mics.

I've been using a Beta 52 w/ the May internal mic system for many years now.
I love it, and it has and always will be a staple in my live performance.

For some time now I have wanted to install internal mics in my Toms, but I am at a loss as to what mics to use. Currently I own 2 Audix D2's and an Audix D4.
I was going to use the D2's in my 10" & 12" Toms and the D4 for my 16" Floor. (respectively getting a nother D4 for my 14" and maybe a D2 for my 13")

Randy May (founder of the May mic company) suggested that I use D4's in all of my rack toms and use kick mics in my Floors.
Not a bad idea, but it's expensive. I would have to buy 2 more D4's and 2 Bass Drum mics... lot-o-$ I don't have.

Wondering what the pros/cons would be to using the D2's I already have in the toms.
I'm thinking 10" & 12" get D2's, 13" gets a D4 and then maybe two inexpensive kick mics for the 14" & 16", but that leaves the question as to what kick mics?

Would a Shure PG52 or Audix F series be a good move?

Beta 52's and most standard kick mics (D112, D6, etc) are out of the budget at the moment. But I have found plenty of inexpensive bass drum mics online.
Good bargain to use as internal mics or not?

i have both the Beta 52 and the PG 52. i have not used either in live performance, but recording-wise i prefer the PG 52 for bass drum. i prefer the Beta 52 for bass guitar cabinet.

it seems to me that the PG 52 seems more focused. it's fuller and thus more punchy (but only if you want it punchy). the Beta 52 is more open (to my ears) and therefore does not catch the punch that the PG 52 does.

i have the whole PG 6 mic kit and i will say that i like it fine. i like the tom mics and bass drum mic. i prefer large condenser mics but the small conderser PG81's are ok.

it may be cheaper to pick them up individually and just get what you need. if you just get as many tom mics as you need and the PG 52 bass mic and skip the PG81 condensers you'll save a bit right there.

i have not used the PG kit internally but i think they would make a great choice for experimentation.

IDDrummer 11-15-2013 01:05 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
The only experience I have had with internal tom mics where someone else's kit, and I have to say I didn't care for the sound. Bo's description of "liquid" toms almost describes it. It was rather like the sound of a roto-tom vs a standard tom - less focused, a bit pingy sounding. I don't honestly know what mics he used.

Anyway, I would bet that is why Randy May recommends the D4. The response curve of that mic gives a dark, punchy sound. It's rather one-dimensional to my ear, but a lot of guys use them for "big" tom sounds. I can imagine they might work well.

latzanimal 11-15-2013 09:04 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
The problem with most drummers who use internal mics is that they do not take the time to find the best position for the mics in the drums. I finally did this a couple years after having mine and I found that the best position was pointed at the bottom head. A year later, Modern Drummer tested a bunch of May mics and found the same thing, the mics sounded better pointed at the bottom heads.

Keep in mind that unless you drill the shells, you'll have the same sound unless you open the drum and move the mic. For live its great, for studio work, it can be a hinderance.

There are ways to mount the mics with using MayEA mics. A guy on another forum mounted a PG set in his kit and I like the way they sound.

I mounted EV408's in my toms and D112's in the floors and kicks. Haven't looked back.

Tommy Aldridge had May's in his kit on the Whitesnake DVD. They sounded like innertubes. He also had the mics pointing right at the top heads.

Nick, feel free to pm me with questions or for more info....

Raelthomas 11-15-2013 09:05 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
I'm really not a fan of internal mic'ing.
I don't think it captures the resonance of the drum properly.

latzanimal 11-15-2013 09:11 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
http://www.randallmay.com/videos.php

latzanimal 11-15-2013 09:12 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
RT, how much have you worked with internal micing?

Raelthomas 11-15-2013 09:25 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by latzanimal (Post 1198298)
RT, how much have you worked with internal micing?

I was about to chime back in and edit my post. Not much at all, to be honest. So I shouldn't be so brash - I have never really, properly, tried it myself. I just haven't heard any that I particularly liked.

latzanimal 11-15-2013 09:34 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelthomas (Post 1198300)
I was about to chime back in and edit my post. Not much at all, to be honest. So I shouldn't be so brash - I have never really, properly, tried it myself. I just haven't heard any that I particularly liked.

No too worry, I was just curious.

As I mentioned before, most drummers do not take the time to find the "sweet spot" when using internal mics... And then others hear them and they get a bad rap as sounding bad...

Raelthomas 11-15-2013 09:38 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
It makes sense, I suppose within a drum there's a myriad of standing waves and dead and/or tonal spots - I kind of denied the idea because of some very bad examples that I saw, but I'm intrigued now. Seems like it would be an very, very fine line, though, room conditions aside.. Finding that sweet sweet spot.

Sorry, mini-hijack.. carry on ;)

latzanimal 11-15-2013 01:06 PM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Nick, look for used mics as well. I bought a D112 and a Beta 52 for $100 ea. They were both like new...

AudioWonderland 11-15-2013 03:12 PM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelthomas (Post 1198302)
It makes sense, I suppose within a drum there's a myriad of standing waves and dead and/or tonal spots - I kind of denied the idea because of some very bad examples that I saw, but I'm intrigued now. Seems like it would be an very, very fine line, though, room conditions aside.. Finding that sweet sweet spot.

Sorry, mini-hijack.. carry on ;)

And you have to pull the head for every tweak....

masonni 11-16-2013 07:11 PM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
I use a Beta 52 with the MAY system in my kick right now.
I've gotten nothing but compliments from sound guys and I love the way it sounds.
Don't work for recording, but I also don't use the same kit for recording that I do live.

I spent a lot of time watching videos from MAY artists the other day, I don't mind the sound of the toms, but I think I would have to spend some time with tuning and placement to get that sweet spot. Maybe mount the mic near the reso head, but still pointed at the batter, like I do with the kick?

The one thing that I know across the board is not to do this on the snare!
I have met a few guys who use an internal 57 on the snare and it always sounds bad.

I'm going to keep my eyes open for more D4's and kick drum mics online. Maybe I'll get lucky and find some cheep ones.

latzanimal 11-21-2013 08:17 AM

Re: Best mics for internal miking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by masonni (Post 1198593)
The one thing that I know across the board is not to do this on the snare!
I have met a few guys who use an internal 57 on the snare and it always sounds bad.

The trick with using one in your snare is to treat the internal mic as a bottom mic and mic the top on the outside. With the internal mic facing the snare wires, you do not have any phase problems in conjunction with the top mic...

My sweet spot for my tom mics was mounted on the bottom lugs facing the logo....


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