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-   -   DW9002 beater position (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110772)

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 03:36 AM

DW9002 beater position
 
Hi guys,

I've owned my DW9002 double pedal for 7 years now. Great pedal. Bought it used off ebay and it shows no issues or signs of letting up :)

The question I have is, I've been using the pedal in single mode up until very recently when I decided to perform in a GC drumoff, and because I had the beater "static" position on the master pedal set as far back as it could go, does that mean my other foot - the slave pedal - should have the same beater position? Because if so, then that slave beater is in the way of my master foot, when my slave foot is on the HH.

(a) Does the slave beater absolutely need to me the same position as the master beater?
(b) Why do I see so many double pedals setup with the beater's static position more at the 45 degree area?

Here's a video illustrating the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKgC...ature=youtu.be

Here's photos:

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3c243f0b.jpg
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/...psa45c23f0.jpg
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/...pse960033c.jpg

Thanks

Steph

ricohorton 10-06-2013 04:28 AM

you beater positions should be 45 degree's aproximately.
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h3...pse4e15b08.jpg

you should have a DW allen tool to adjust the beater angles. the master beater is way too far back. you must insert the allen tool into the side of the post to make adjustments. your spring tension looks too loose. that's why the slave beater hits your foot.

wildbill 10-06-2013 07:10 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rhumbagirl (Post 1186489)

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3c243f0b.jpg



(a) Does the slave beater absolutely need to me the same position as the master beater?
(b) Why do I see so many double pedals setup with the beater's static position more at the 45 degree area?

Thanks

Steph




Wow - is that how you play your pedal - seriously?

It's amazing how differently people can set stuff up and have it work for them. If I tried to play that, the top of my foot would be bruised, if not bloody - LOL. It looks like I'd have a hard time even fitting my foot in the gap between the pedal and the beater.

My 9000 (single), and the rest of my pedals are set up so that the foot boards are as low as they can go without hitting anything on the bottom when they're fully depressed. And the beater is about 4 to 5 inches from the head. Probably less than 45 degrees, but I never really measured the angle.

About the slave/master angles - I think most people set them up about even so that there is consistency in the amount of travel of both the beaters and the feet, to produce similar results. You probably wouldn't want to have one foot traveling 5 inches down and the other 1 inch, for example. It would be difficult to get similar loudness on the hits, and your legs and feet (and brain) might not deal well with that much variation.

About beater angles, I can't speak for others, but at 45 degrees, there is a little safety factor to prevent the beater from hitting the top of the foot if it over returns after a hit. There's also not too much excess motion or travel required from the start point, to the point of contact with the head.

Your setup wouldn't work at all for me, but that's not what counts. Use whatever works for you. But I think it's good to try to make it comfortable, and have a setup that avoids excess effort and non productive motion.

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 09:18 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Hi Bill,

I took some time thinking about the way it is set up - the master beater at least.

(1) The spring is too stiff, because when have my foot on the pedal with it fully depressed - beater contacting the head - the tension required me to loosen the spring as much as I could. Hence, when I take my foot away, there's zero tension on the spring, and there's nothing to keep the weight of the beater from falling past the apex - the point associated with a spring that is perfectly vertical.

(2) You are correct in that it makes it a little unusual getting your foot into playing position. But once it's there, it feels and operates just like any other setup.

(3) The only thing I've done is increase the percentage (from 45 deg to 80 deg) of the beater travel that is under spring tension.

So I think the real culprit of my setup is a spring that is too stiff. Because if it was less stiff, I'd be able to tension it tighter such that it has some remaining tension at the apex position - the position where the spring is perfectly vertical and hence is at its shortest length - yet isn't too tight at the fully depressed position (beater contacting head)

I'll make a video of it in use and post it in the coming days. I don't think the master beater is hitting my foot. Although the slave beater certainly does, either from my foot running into it in its static position (no slave foot on it), or the beater hitting my foot when the slave foot transitions off the pedal to the hihat.

Steph

drumming sort of person 10-06-2013 11:06 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Wow! Now I've seen everything!

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 11:46 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drumming sort of person (Post 1186562)
Wow! Now I've seen everything!

It does look extreme at first glance, but if you look closer, the foot board is at its max up position as well, which is expected given the beater position. Once you get into playing position with the weight of your foot there, the beater returns to a normal playing position.

I wouldn't expect it to work for everybody, due to different foot lengths and technique. In my case, my foot is long enough that the beater head on rebound stroke... the beater head gets right into the "V" of the ankle, but no cigar on any contact. If my feet were a half inch shorter, then it might be a problem.

wildbill 10-06-2013 04:16 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
I'm a little hesitant to say anything more, in case it sounds critical instead of helpful.

But I think maybe you should try lowering the foot board a bit, reducing the beater angle, and tightening the spring up a little.
It sounds like somehow you've come to avoid any tension on the spring. Don't be afraid of it - spring tension is your friend - LOL
If spring tension really is a problem for you, you could also try a little weaker spring of the same length.

All that said, if how you have it set up is working good for you, and you don't want to change it, then maybe your only option is to reduce the angle on the slave beater. This might require more spring tension on the slave side, which might also be your weaker foot. That might cause some type of imbalance problem.

I hope you let us know how you resolve your dilemma.

eclipseownzu 10-06-2013 05:23 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
I would say that yes, your slave and master pedal set ups should be as similar as possible. You want to create as little lag in the slave pedal as possible. The best way to do this is to set them up so you can lead with either foot and have the same beater velocity. The key is balance.

XplosiveDrummer 10-06-2013 07:50 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Like has been said you want the beaters to line up in distance and height as close as possible and actually I mean dead on. Though where you can be a bit different is with the spring tension. Because the slave has a bar or connecting rod, there is far more torque being applied to the beater. I've noticed, with my Tama IC's, that it takes less spring tension on the slave to get good rebound. So I usually have the main tighter by a few threads. That may not be the best for every double pedal but it works for me and this one. You also want to get them to swing back n forth as evenly as possible. Pull them back with your fingers or a drum stick and let go and watch them. It may take some fine tuning but that's what I would aim for.

As for the main pedal and how it's set up, I'm not sure how much work you do with your right foot. I suppose if you don't lift a lot to where it allows the beater to come back all that much then it may work for you but I just can't believe you're not destroying the top of your foot lol. The footboard may not be all that bad, as I believe Tony Royster Jr has his 9000's up quite a bit but either way like others feel, I think the beater could be moved forward quite a bit lol. :)

You're actually being counter effective. For the same kind of tension as you get with it that far back, you can have it with the beater much closer. I too like a bit of distance and a longer stroke but that just seems too excessive. Though like I said, you may not move your foot enough to where it allows the beater to come back and hit your foot and you may play like that either because you're trying to keep it from hitting your foot or because that's just how you play.

Either way I now hate you knowing you have 9000's for pedals lol! :P :)

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 07:58 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbill (Post 1186594)
I'm a little hesitant to say anything more, in case it sounds critical instead of helpful.

But I think maybe you should try lowering the foot board a bit, reducing the beater angle, and tightening the spring up a little.
It sounds like somehow you've come to avoid any tension on the spring. Don't be afraid of it - spring tension is your friend - LOL
If spring tension really is a problem for you, you could also try a little weaker spring of the same length.

All that said, if how you have it set up is working good for you, and you don't want to change it, then maybe your only option is to reduce the angle on the slave beater. This might require more spring tension on the slave side, which might also be your weaker foot. That might cause some type of imbalance problem.

I hope you let us know how you resolve your dilemma.

Bill, the footboard is already at its lowest setting, which was made by the adjustment at the top of the spring. Again, it looks high in the static position because the beater weight is pulling it up against zero spring tension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipseownzu (Post 1186613)
I would say that yes, your slave and master pedal set ups should be as similar as possible. You want to create as little lag in the slave pedal as possible. The best way to do this is to set them up so you can lead with either foot and have the same beater velocity. The key is balance.

Part of the problem with that is the slave is always going to have some extra resistance due to the angles at the drive shaft U joints. You can see this in the photo, as the slave beater - with same spring tension and same foot board height - is higher than the master beater. But that said, as most drummers play with a static beater position in the 45 deg area, the slave beater can be adjusted such that the total [of drive shaft U joint resistance plus spring tension] brings the beater to the same position as the master.

Unless your static beater position is 80-90 deg.

In summary, I have to conclude that: All double BD pedals with two beaters over the master footboard, have an issue with slave beater hitting master foot in the case above (high percentage of beater travel with spring tension), in which case, one would have to assume that for double BD work, one needs to learn to play in a lower percentage position, eg 45-50 deg

Steph

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 08:32 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by XplosiveDrummer (Post 1186662)
I've noticed, with my Tama IC's, that it takes less spring tension on the slave to get good rebound. So I usually have the main tighter by a few threads. That may not be the best for every double pedal but it works for me and this one.

This would be consistent with my conclusion above, that the total resistance on the SLAVE beater is the spring tension plus the resistance of the drive shaft U joints (which is dependent on the angle of those joints, and some minor resistance from ball bearings, in which case the DW9002 has some of the smoothest, if not THE smoothest bearings). So you need less spring tension, because the remaining tension is brought by the resistance in the drive shaft and bearings.

Quote:

As for the main pedal and how it's set up, I'm not sure how much work you do with your right foot.
I do alot. I've played single my entire life. The DW9002 slave part stayed in a box until very recently. And because I play entirely jazz, I don't see myself trying to play more than a couple of notes here and there, within empty spots in a fill.

Quote:

I suppose if you don't lift a lot to where it allows the beater to come back all that much then it may work for you but I just can't believe you're not destroying the top of your foot lol. The footboard may not be all that bad, as I believe Tony Royster Jr has his 9000's up quite a bit but either way like others feel, I think the beater could be moved forward quite a bit lol. :)
The photo shows the static position of the pedal. That footboard actually is very low - at its lowest setting - when in the playing position. The only thing weird about it is getting your foot INTO the playing position.

Quote:

You're actually being counter effective. For the same kind of tension as you get with it that far back, you can have it with the beater much closer. I too like a bit of distance and a longer stroke but that just seems too excessive. Though like I said, you may not move your foot enough to where it allows the beater to come back and hit your foot and you may play like that either because you're trying to keep it from hitting your foot or because that's just how you play.
Let me make a video today and post what my foot looks like playing. Be aware that my double pedal work is crap compared to what I can do sitting at a bus stop in my tennis shoes :)

Quote:

Either way I now hate you knowing you have 9000's for pedals lol! :P :)
Hah! You should hate me because I got a good deal on ebay. I may end up going for the IC. And I think the hip is on the Rolling Glide for sensitivity. I've been very happy with the DW9000, which is code for the master part of the DW9002. I like the way it's built and the way it looks. I'm glad I don't like the round lugs on DW drums, because then I'd have to fork up a lot of $$$$ to play them. DW pedals and hardware, including the AirLift throne, are good to go for me!!

I was a Speed King user prior to that, which = 20 yrs of playing = 20 yrs of a cam/hinge wearing a hole in the bottom of the BD head :)

Steph

rhumbagirl 10-06-2013 09:17 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Of course no one has mentioned "negative beater resistance". That would be the other difference between a 90 deg and a 45 degree static beater setup, with the 45 deg option having the spring become tensioned a second time, as the beater rebound passes the apex position (the position where the spring is perfectly vertical, and hence has it's shortest length), the spring now pulling the beater TOWARD the drum head.

I would imagine this is not a big difference, since the beater may not travel that much past the 45 deg apex. Although a video would tell... calling all drummers, all drummers with double pedals, please go forth and produce videos!!! LOL

Steph

wildbill 10-06-2013 09:47 PM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
After watching your video again, I think I start to see where you're coming from.

Once your foot is in place, the pedal is actually depressed quite a bit - looking nothing at all like your first pic. And while you're playing, it looks like the beater never really comes back much more than 45 degrees.

So, as long as you don't release the tension on the pedal completely, you're probably not getting whacked in the foot from the main pedal. LOL
Except for the spring tension, it could almost be a normal setup.

Sorry - no more input from here.

drumming sort of person 10-07-2013 06:12 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Have you ever played another drummer's drums? Has anyone sat at your drums and commented on the pedal setup?

rhumbagirl 10-07-2013 08:15 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drumming sort of person (Post 1186862)
Have you ever played another drummer's drums? Has anyone sat at your drums and commented on the pedal setup?

Yes, and when I do, I'm usually dissatisfied with their BD pedal setup, even though the kind of material I'm sitting in on - blues - is not very demanding BD wise.

On the second question, no.

rhumbagirl 10-07-2013 09:08 AM

Re: DW9002 beater position
 
For those of you here that don't follow this "techy" talk, or don't care LOL, let me put together a presentation and post in the next week or so. Just some photos with markup illustrating the science behind the bass drum pedal, well at least the DW9000.

Afterall, I started this thread :)


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