DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/index.php)
-   Off Topic Lounge (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   Ludwig's parent company sold (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108314)

DrumEatDrum 07-01-2013 07:32 PM

Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Ludwig drums are, as many know, owned by Conn-Selmer.

Conn-Selmer is actually a division of Steinway Musical Instruments.

And now:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/07/...-million/?_r=0

Quote:

Steinway Sold to Private Equity Firm for $438 Million

Steinway Musical Instruments announced on Monday that it had agreed to be acquired by the private equity firm Kohlberg & Company in a deal worth roughly $438 million.

The offer of $35 a share represents a 33 percent premium over Steinway’s average closing price in the 90 trading days that ended June 28. Compared with the average closing price during the 52 weeks that ended June 28, the offer represents a premium of 45 percent, the company said

I doubt this will effect Ludwig itself very much, if at all for now.

But what the future may hold, who knows.

rdb 07-01-2013 07:47 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Don't these PE firms then break up the company and sell off the pieces?

opentune 07-01-2013 07:50 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rdb (Post 1156898)
Don't these PE firms then break up the company and sell off the pieces?

Yes. Watch for that.

bermuda 07-01-2013 10:45 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
In some ways, this frees up Ludwig to things that were more restrictive under Steinway. Definitely a good thing in terms of what Ludwig will be able to do in the future.

Bermuda

GRUNTERSDAD 07-01-2013 11:59 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Here's hoping they leave Ludwig alone. No one loves their drums more than Luddy fans. Let's hope it's all for the best.

bobdadruma 07-02-2013 12:02 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
In a situation like this you never know what will happen.
You just have to wait and see.
Ludwig may be sold off in the near future.
Who knows what is on Kohlberg's mind.

tamadrm 07-02-2013 12:15 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
It's difficult to know what will happen,but Ludwigs brand recognition and history will certainly play into it's future .Ludwigs recent sucess with their USA made drums,new hardware line and list of celebrity endorcers will also factor in.

Like Bermuda says,this could be good thing for Ludwig ;winner,winner chicken dinner for "the most famous name on drums".

Steve B

Bo Eder 07-02-2013 12:20 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadrm (Post 1156963)

Like Bermuda says,this could be good thing for Ludwig ;winner,winner chicken dinner for "the most famous name on drums".

Steve B

Mapex?


.................................................. ....................... ;)

DrumEatDrum 07-02-2013 12:26 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rdb (Post 1156898)
Don't these PE firms then break up the company and sell off the pieces?

Sometimes, not always. I wouldn't guess either way in this case.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if someone at Gibson has a phone call in to see if a spin off would be part of the plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermuda (Post 1156943)
In some ways, this frees up Ludwig to things that were more restrictive under Steinway. Definitely a good thing in terms of what Ludwig will be able to do in the future.

Bermuda

Oh, now I'm curious!! What was restrictive about Steinway?

Bo Eder 07-02-2013 01:59 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum (Post 1156969)


Oh, now I'm curious!! What was restrictive about Steinway?

You notice how everything Steinway did was black and white?

DrumEatDrum 07-02-2013 02:02 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Eder (Post 1156988)
You notice how everything Steinway did was black and white?

Yeah, that was a real problem for Ludwig.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/k...pchris/8-1.jpg

Red Menace 07-02-2013 02:39 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
This could mean changes for Luddy. They have been working very hard to improve their QC process and refresh their image. I hope they continue on that path. If not then I'm hoping for another Drumcraft esque fire sale.

bobdadruma 07-02-2013 03:27 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Whatever happens I am sure that an Icon like Ludwig will prevail.
Ludwig survived the 70's when Rogers and Slingerland lay on their death beads.
They currently have problems like all musical instrument companies do in this poor economy.
They have innovative and desirable products that we drummers like and I'm sure that the new owner knows that.

Bo Eder 07-02-2013 03:35 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Menace (Post 1157001)
This could mean changes for Luddy. They have been working very hard to improve their QC process and refresh their image. I hope they continue on that path. If not then I'm hoping for another Drumcraft esque fire sale.

I'd like to think Ludwig is on much better financial footing in its own home country. Personally I think they have too many people who recognize and love the product for that to even be a consideration. They, along with Gretsch to a smaller degree, did survive the Japanese onslaught that killed names like Camco, Rogers, and Slingerland, although it probably wasn't a pretty survival, they did nonetheless ;)

bobdadruma 07-02-2013 04:17 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Kohlberg & Company started as a hostile takeover corporate raider of large companies but they have mellowed a bit over the years and they now take over smaller companies. Either way I am sure that Ludwig will be split up and sold off.
Without knowing the financial status of Ludwig it is hard to say exactly what will happen.
I can't see Ludwig as being a financial asset though.
The prize that Kohlberg wanted was definitely Steinway.
Ludwig is just a knick knack that was in the house that they bought.
The snare drum division is the profit center for Ludwig.
The other divisions may be sold off.

Bo Eder 07-02-2013 07:45 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 1157032)
Kohlberg & Company started as a hostile takeover corporate raider of large companies but they have mellowed a bit over the years and they now take over smaller companies. Either way I am sure that Ludwig will be split up and sold off.
Without knowing the financial status of Ludwig it is hard to say exactly what will happen.
I can't see Ludwig as being a financial asset though.
The prize that Kohlberg wanted was definitely Steinway.
Ludwig is just a knick knack that was in the house that they bought.
The snare drum division is the profit center for Ludwig.
The other divisions may be sold off.

Sounds kinda' dark there, Bob. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Be brave, little toasters ;)

bobdadruma 07-02-2013 12:29 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Eder (Post 1157058)
Sounds kinda' dark there, Bob. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Be brave, little toasters ;)

Wall St can be a dark place Bo. The people who bought Steinway don't care about musical instruments. They only care about profit.

Bo Eder 07-02-2013 01:18 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 1157089)
Wall St can be a dark place Bo. The people who bought Steinway don't care about musical instruments. They only care about profit.

That's pretty true for most businesses, including Ludwig. Given the longevity of the company as it is, I'm sure it will remain in one form or another. Thankfully, there's so many old used ones floating about (that you and I both own) I think it's safe to say at this time that if we just maintained the Ludwigs we already have, they'd be the last ones we ever played ;)

SgtThump 07-02-2013 03:24 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quick, buy up all the "pre-Kohlberg & Company" Ludwigs you can get your hands on! They'll be worth millions!

;)

DrumEatDrum 07-02-2013 05:28 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma (Post 1157089)
Wall St can be a dark place Bo. The people who bought Steinway don't care about musical instruments. They only care about profit.

True, but keep in mind, Steinway was a publicly traded company. Ludwig has been tied to Wall Street for some time.

Ludwig was sold to Selmer in 1981. Selmer bought Steinway in 1995, and re-branded itself as Steinway Musical Instruments.

Ludwig has a long history of being bought and sold going back to 1930's.

larryz 07-02-2013 07:33 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
How about a Ludwig USA made kit for under $1,000? I know it can be done... Come on!

keep it simple 07-02-2013 08:41 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryz (Post 1157194)
How about a Ludwig USA made kit for under $1,000? I know it can be done... Come on!

Not so sure. Just about everything that can be outsourced to Asia on a "made in the USA" kit already is. Remember, a $1,000 retail kit costs no more than $250 to make in material & production costs. Is that what you really want?

Ludwig seem to be finally making progress. I hope that's allowed to continue. Even better, I hope they're allowed to invest more along those lines in the future.

bermuda 07-02-2013 10:52 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
The separation of Steinway and Conn-Selmer has been in the works for a little while, although I'm not certain it happened in the way originally intended. Ludwig was pretty optimistic about the split, and they are doing well financially and the brand retains plenty of value. I doubt that Conn-Selmer would let them go, unless offered a ton of money.

As for Steinway as the parent being restrictive, public companies have to really watch expenditures, because they are obligated to their shareholders to spend money prudently and at the same time, grow their business. It's a fine line. But with less stringent cost justification procedures, Ludwig hs more wiggle room to try some things, spend more to make more, etc.

Bermuda

Jeremy Bender 07-03-2013 12:48 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Let's pray that Ludwig doesn't succumb to the same fate Slingerland did under Gibson.

wildbil 07-03-2013 12:52 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Its a shame that family started companies do this,reality I suppose.

Bo Eder 07-03-2013 01:12 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbil (Post 1157325)
Its a shame that family started companies do this,reality I suppose.

This particular family company did this years ago, you know ;)

bobdadruma 07-03-2013 02:45 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
A person starts a company. He works hard to build it from the ground up. The company becomes successful. The company gets large and hard to manage. The founder of the company looks to larger companies to buy them and help them to grow. They wind up on the open sea with waves all around and sharks circling.
The Great American Dream.

Red Menace 07-03-2013 06:10 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
I read a great quote the other day, can't remember who it was attributed to. I went something like "Growth for the sake of growth is the mentality of a Cancer cell"

Bobm what's with the ducky? I googled what the green ribbon was and it can stand for a number of things. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're supporing people with a stutter. Good for you Bob.

bermuda 07-03-2013 07:36 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Menace (Post 1157411)
I read a great quote the other day, can't remember who it was attributed to. I went something like "Growth for the sake of growth is the mentality of a Cancer cell"

Semi-clever rhetoric, perhaps. But it's everyone's mission to grow in whatever ways they can. Nobody should (deliberately) do anything in order to stay at the bottom of the ladder or not improve themselves.

In the case of corporations who are responsible to shareholders and their financial investment in the company, growth is mandatory. Would you invest in a company with the knowledge that they have no intention of moving forward, and that your money wouldn't grow?

Growth, learning, getting better... all good. Not like cancer at all.

Bermuda

Red Menace 07-03-2013 07:55 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Perhaps a touch of equivocation there John.

I was refering to the the growth of a comany in size and in assets simply for the sake of growth. A person is not a company and the aquisition of knowledge is a completly different thing than a company growing. Semi-clever argument though.

bermuda 07-03-2013 08:35 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Menace (Post 1157430)
Perhaps a touch of equivocation there John.

I was refering to the the growth of a comany in size and in assets simply for the sake of growth. A person is not a company and the aquisition of knowledge is a completly different thing than a company growing. Semi-clever argument though.

Just wanted to add a human reference.

Corporations grow not just for their own amusement or as a challenge or for the sake of it, it is their mission to grow. If they attempt to fight that because it somehow looks bad, they will stop growing. That means they are shrinking as everyone else grows around them.

Ludwig is not a company that is standing still, and therefore they possess value to Conn-Selmer. If somebody wants to take Ludwig private with a large cash offer, I'll bet they'd consider it. But even as a privately held company, the owner/s would still want to keep them growing.

Bermuda

Bo Eder 07-03-2013 10:28 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Menace (Post 1157430)
Perhaps a touch of equivocation there John.

I was refering to the the growth of a comany in size and in assets simply for the sake of growth. A person is not a company and the aquisition of knowledge is a completly different thing than a company growing. Semi-clever argument though.

I'm not understanding where you're coming from. Companies are made up of people, and companies in business are supposed to be growing, or else no one would invest in them because those people's objective is to make more money, right? So the growth in physical size and assets is a given. Why is a company getting bigger a bad thing? Or am I reading you wrong?

MrInsanePolack 07-03-2013 11:41 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Eder (Post 1157457)
I'm not understanding where you're coming from. Companies are made up of people, and companies in business are supposed to be growing, or else no one would invest in them because those people's objective is to make more money, right? So the growth in physical size and assets is a given. Why is a company getting bigger a bad thing? Or am I reading you wrong?

Perhaps he is referring to overgrowth, when a company becomes so big it starts to influence not just itself and its investors, but life in general. Look at Walmart. They are everywhere, biggest company in the world. In achieving this status, they have successfully run mom and pop shops out of business, and even put a major dent in other big box stores as well as grocery stores. In doing this, they have successfully limited our choices to what they have, not what we want. You want a certain brand of spaghetti sauce and Walmart doesn't carry it, you can drive out of your way to a store that does carry it and pay more for it, or you can compromise and buy what they want us to. Ever see a city try to keep a Walmart out? Walmart buys some land just outside city limits, builds their store, has roads built to access their store, and suddenly homes start to spring up around the store. What happens next? The city rezones and suddenly Walmart is part of that city, just like they wanted. They may say "pay less, live better", but is limiting our choices as consumers really better? It's borderline monopoly, and that kind of growth is bad. It becomes self serving, just for its own survival, not caring what or whom it steps on. Corporate mergers and takeovers can be a good thing if it is in the best interest of the consumer, but if it is in the interest of just making money, that is a whole different story. Just like cancer, it only grows to feed itself at the cost of everything and anything else.

For what it's worth, the Walmart home office is less than 10 miles from my home, and there are 4 Walmarts within that same radial distance. Is that really necessary?

keep it simple 07-03-2013 12:22 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Eder (Post 1157457)
Why is a company getting bigger a bad thing? Or am I reading you wrong?

A company getting bigger can have negative implications for both product quality & customers, but can also offer benefits in both areas too. It largely depends on management focus & how disconnected the holding company is from the "division". In larger corporations, decisions that may be beneficial to the corporation may not necessarily be good for individual businesses.

bobdadruma 07-03-2013 12:29 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Menace (Post 1157411)

Bobm what's with the ducky? I googled what the green ribbon was and it can stand for a number of things. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're supporing people with a stutter. Good for you Bob.

That is a Sandy Hook Duck. Note the green color. I work in Newtown near the school.

SgtThump 07-03-2013 03:25 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
That's it. I'm going to make a move to buy Ludwig. I'll let you know how it goes.

Bo Eder 07-03-2013 07:50 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1157476)
Perhaps he is referring to overgrowth, when a company becomes so big it starts to influence not just itself and its investors, but life in general. Look at Walmart. They are everywhere, biggest company in the world. In achieving this status, they have successfully run mom and pop shops out of business, and even put a major dent in other big box stores as well as grocery stores. In doing this, they have successfully limited our choices to what they have, not what we want. You want a certain brand of spaghetti sauce and Walmart doesn't carry it, you can drive out of your way to a store that does carry it and pay more for it, or you can compromise and buy what they want us to. Ever see a city try to keep a Walmart out? Walmart buys some land just outside city limits, builds their store, has roads built to access their store, and suddenly homes start to spring up around the store. What happens next? The city rezones and suddenly Walmart is part of that city, just like they wanted. They may say "pay less, live better", but is limiting our choices as consumers really better? It's borderline monopoly, and that kind of growth is bad. It becomes self serving, just for its own survival, not caring what or whom it steps on. Corporate mergers and takeovers can be a good thing if it is in the best interest of the consumer, but if it is in the interest of just making money, that is a whole different story. Just like cancer, it only grows to feed itself at the cost of everything and anything else.

For what it's worth, the Walmart home office is less than 10 miles from my home, and there are 4 Walmarts within that same radial distance. Is that really necessary?

Yeah I suppose that sounds like a bit of overkill. But we do t seem to have walmarts concentrated like that in California. Starbucks does that out here. Same thing with McDonalds.

Does anybody really think Ludwig would ever be that big? Come on now.

opentune 07-03-2013 08:37 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack (Post 1157476)
Perhaps he is referring to overgrowth, when a company becomes so big it starts to influence not just itself and its investors, but life in general. Look at Walmart. They are everywhere, biggest company in the world. In achieving this status, they have successfully run mom and pop shops out of business, and even put a major dent in other big box stores as well as grocery stores. In doing this, they have successfully limited our choices to what they have, not what we want.

True, but the customers keep coming. The demand is obviously there.
The only way to stop this is using your own pocket book, to change where you buy your cookies, coffee...etc. Ultimately personal choice.

Now, back to the OP, will Walmart start to sell Ludwigs....or drums and musical instruments even?

MrInsanePolack 07-03-2013 09:06 PM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opentune (Post 1157588)
True, but the customers keep coming. The demand is obviously there.
The only way to stop this is using your own pocket book, to change where you buy your cookies, coffee...etc. Ultimately personal choice.

Now, back to the OP, will Walmart start to sell Ludwigs....or drums and musical instruments even?

They do, if you consider First Act musical instruments! Ludwig, probably not....

DrumEatDrum 07-04-2013 01:48 AM

Re: Ludwig's parent company sold
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender (Post 1157321)
Let's pray that Ludwig doesn't succumb to the same fate Slingerland did under Gibson.

Apples and Oranges.

When Gibson bought Slingerland, they were buying a defunct company. And it was also muddied by Gibsons failed partnership with Mapex.

Ludwig is on an on going viable company.


Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbil (Post 1157325)
Its a shame that family started companies do this,reality I suppose.

Ludwig hasn't been family owned in over 30 years.

Steinway hasn't been family owned for almost 40 years.

Overall:

This sale could mean something. It could mean nothing.

Latin Percussion was sold to Kaman, and then all of Kaman Music was sold to Fender, and yet the same people work at LP, with no difference to the end consumer.

Gretsch distribution agreement with Kaman, and sale of certain assets to Kaman (now Fender), only made the Gretsch brand stronger.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com