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-   -   English drummer killed in attack. (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107169)

Deathmetalconga 05-23-2013 06:34 PM

English drummer killed in attack.
 
Incredibly sad.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...lwich-incident

IDDrummer 05-23-2013 07:26 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Goofy news report, it didn't really tell us what the "incident" was. Nice tribute to the soldier, but as a news article, weak. Like most of them.

StickIt 05-23-2013 07:29 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Goofy news report, it didn't really tell us what the "incident" was. Nice tribute to the soldier, but as a news article, weak. Like most of them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ndon-live.html

Very sad indeed...

BacteriumFendYoke 05-23-2013 07:36 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IDDrummer (Post 1142919)
Goofy news report, it didn't really tell us what the "incident" was. Nice tribute to the soldier, but as a news article, weak. Like most of them.

That's because it's a press release statement. Not a news article.

An horrific attack in a part of London that I know quite well.

keep it simple 05-23-2013 08:00 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
My goodness, that poor young man was a drummer? Double sadness :( Brazen execution & beheading on our streets is such a terrible turn for the worse, I'm lost for words.

I believe the modern term is "restorative justice". i.e. hand the snivelling little turds over to the family members for a few months. All tools provided, of course.

Deathmetalconga 05-23-2013 08:06 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IDDrummer (Post 1142919)
Goofy news report, it didn't really tell us what the "incident" was. Nice tribute to the soldier, but as a news article, weak. Like most of them.

Notice it's an official statement from the government, with quotes from friends. On this particular page, the focus is on the life he lived. Everything everywhere else is about how he died.

IDDrummer 05-23-2013 08:48 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
I see, my error!

That is awful news. Sorry to hear about it.

Magenta 05-23-2013 09:17 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
It's a terrible, horrific thing.

I come from an ethnic and religious minority background. I have no idea who or what I would be if I didn't live in the UK.

There are always going to be people who don't take responsibility for their own evil actions and blame their God instead. I don't believe in an afterlife, but I bloody hope there is one for them.

larryace 05-23-2013 09:47 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Why is it that these things happening to the really good people? You never hear people say, you know the guy was a scumbag and deserved it. It's always how great of a person they were, protecting his sisters and being a big brother figure, larger than life. It's just a god d@#% gruesome shame.

Magenta 05-23-2013 10:02 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace (Post 1142969)
Why is it that these things happening to the really good people? .

I don't know if he was a "really good person". He may have been a wife-beater; he may have tortured cats to death. He may have been a serial rapist.

But what I do know is that nobody deserves to die on the street, without a trial.

And what I also don't know is how ANYBODY can think that it's God's will to stone to death a rape victim.

Deathmetalconga 05-23-2013 10:31 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magenta (Post 1142976)
I don't know if he was a "really good person". He may have been a wife-beater; he may have tortured cats to death. He may have been a serial rapist.

But what I do know is that nobody deserves to die on the street, without a trial.

And what I also don't know is how ANYBODY can think that it's God's will to stone to death a rape victim.

From what we do know about the victim, he really was a good person and not any of the things you mention. He served his nation, played music and was father of a two year old.

His attackers, however, are simply evil.

toddmc 05-24-2013 02:38 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Absolutely horrific thing to happen to anyone, let alone a solider and fellow drummer.
From what I've seen on the news he was indeed a good person- can't comprehend why he was targeted by these evil men.

Anon La Ply 05-24-2013 07:16 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Hideous business. I don't think the murderers have done any favours for their fellow African migrants, many of whom are no doubt just regular people hoping for a good life.

I'm thinking that each killer should spend life in solitary confinement with no visitors. If they go into general prison population I can imagine the tensions between Muslim and skinhead inmates breeding a hotbed of extremism, just waiting to be released on the streets.

I guess the only answer is for people to persevere and keep going about their business.

oldrockdrummer 05-24-2013 01:41 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
This my friends is why I fight so hard to protect my 2nd amendment rights! I at least want to have the chance to defend myself against nut jobs like these people.

keep it simple 05-24-2013 01:58 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldrockdrummer (Post 1143210)
This my friends is why I fight so hard to protect my 2nd amendment rights! I at least want to have the chance to defend myself against nut jobs like these people.

Absolutely seeking to avoid any political stances here, but worth mentioning that a gun would not have made any difference. The cowardly bastards ran him down with a car first.

Deathmetalconga 05-24-2013 06:02 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply (Post 1143158)
Hideous business. I don't think the murderers have done any favours for their fellow African migrants, many of whom are no doubt just regular people hoping for a good life.

I'm thinking that each killer should spend life in solitary confinement with no visitors. If they go into general prison population I can imagine the tensions between Muslim and skinhead inmates breeding a hotbed of extremism, just waiting to be released on the streets.

I guess the only answer is for people to persevere and keep going about their business.

I know most Muslims support freedom, democracy, secular rule of law and human rights. I get it.

But the radical Islamist/Jihadist minority is what concerns me. For whatever size that minority is, they are very anti-democracy, anti-human rights, anti-woman, anti-homosexual and more. This minority blows up buildings, throws acid in womens' faces, set women afire, has sex with 10-year-olds, butchers people in the streets, cuts off hands and feet as punishment, stones homosexuals to death, beheads its critics in public and destroys schools. This minority runs society in many lands and its members flood into mature, tolerant, First-World democracies and refuse to adapt, instead pressing for the destruction of that democracy and imposing barbaric religious laws. This minority sees no distinction between the state and God and will kill anyone who opposes them.

So I'm concerned about this minority.

zarrdoss 05-24-2013 06:38 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Disturbing news, RIP Lee Rigby

BacteriumFendYoke 05-24-2013 08:13 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldrockdrummer (Post 1143210)
This my friends is why I fight so hard to protect my 2nd amendment rights! I at least want to have the chance to defend myself against nut jobs like these people.

Really not the time or place, especially considering that this particular incident has nothing to do with the United States and rather the United Kingdom, where we have very strict gun control laws and the correspondingly low level of gun-related crime.

GRUNTERSDAD 05-24-2013 08:17 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
I realize the press has a job to do but these folks thrive on attention to their cause. I say broadcast nothing.

Deathmetalconga 05-24-2013 08:19 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke (Post 1143346)
Really not the time or place, especially considering that this particular incident has nothing to do with the United States and rather the United Kingdom, where we have very strict gun control laws and the correspondingly low level of gun-related crime.

And correspondingly low levels of gun-related defense. Your laws are so strict on guns, it took police 20 minutes to arrive with firearms suitable to subdue the attackers. Thankfully - and for reasons I cannot comprehend - the butchers didn't attack any more innocent people in that time period, nor did they flee, but instead waited and waited like everybody else for the police to arrive.

Mindblowing. Weren't there any other police who could have intervened in that 20 minutes? In the middle of London?

BacteriumFendYoke 05-24-2013 08:27 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
It's not the middle of London. Woolwich is a suburb and a particularly deprived and Police-poor one at that. Absolutely the are arguments that British Police should be more readily available and perhaps armed but there are also equally valid arguments (that I support) against arming the ordinary Police officers.

The armed Police are a particular unit that are generally quick-response. The truth is that almost anywhere outside of the centres of cities that the Police response time is relatively slow - armed or otherwise. I have no idea what US Policing is like (other than they are armed as a matter of course) and it may be that your standard response times are quicker but in the UK there has been a history of a lack of Police in needed areas. Whether or not they were armed with firearms is irrelevant - most Police officers now have access to non-lethal weaponry like tasers which in this case would have an effective stand-off range to take on an attacker armed with a machete. It just so happens in this case, the armed Police were called. Other Police officers at that time (if present) would have sealed off the area and not confronted the attackers as a matter of procedure. Once the armed Police are there, all other forces take the back seat.

The full details of what exactly happened after the incident and before the Police arrived are not entirely clear. I know there are some frankly shocking images of a member of the public talking to an attacker - which is brave to say the least - but in the UK the Police are very rarely 'just around the corner', especially in deprived areas like Woolwich.

I know Woolwich quite well, incidentally. It's not a particularly bad area of London (Southwark and Tower Hamlets are worse) but there is definitely an issue with a lack of Police presence.

Reading a further news story, the response time was actually 13 minutes, not twenty. For armed Police in the UK - that is quick. For any Police in the UK, that is quick...

zarrdoss 05-24-2013 08:31 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
post deleted plus 20

BacteriumFendYoke 05-24-2013 08:33 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zarrdoss (Post 1143356)
Yes, but you are 4 times more likely to be a victim of a violent (non gun related) crime. Wait the perpetrators had a revolver, and the citizens had I-phones, nice to see those "strict" gun laws are working out for you. I bet a similar incident like this would never occur in somewhere like Texas.

I'm not going to discuss guns laws any further. This is an exceptional incident and whilst there certainly are guns around in the UK that are owned illegally, to generalise and say that our laws don't work based on a single incident is somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

What about the McKinney homicide? If we want to generalise.

We can all throw around examples of homicide in any country. The fact is that this is an exceptional case and one that I am deeply ashamed of.

An intentional homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 as opposed to 4.8 per 100,000 in the UK and US respectively says enough to me.

Citation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

Reference: United Nations office on Drugs and Crime. (2012)

zarrdoss 05-24-2013 08:44 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
post deleted plus 20

BacteriumFendYoke 05-24-2013 08:59 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
That's fine and all but a homicide rate four times that of the UK says enough for me. Guns or otherwise.

PS. Whatever Piers Morgan says - whether I agree or not - is irrelevant. He's not well liked over here to say the least, either...

Magenta 05-24-2013 10:08 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga (Post 1143302)
I'm concerned about this minority.

So am I, and I am equally concerned about the hardline backlash. I firmly believe that moderation is the best way to defeat extremism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke (Post 1143358)
The fact is that this is an exceptional case and one that I am deeply ashamed of.

What he said.

oldrockdrummer 05-25-2013 04:13 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke (Post 1143346)
Really not the time or place, especially considering that this particular incident has nothing to do with the United States and rather the United Kingdom, where we have very strict gun control laws and the correspondingly low level of gun-related crime.

Take away the guns what do they do? Hack you to peaces with a butcher knife and a meat clever. not gonna happen to me if i can help it

toddmc 05-25-2013 04:19 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Disappointed (to say the least) that this thread has degenerated into yet another gun control debate.

Deathmetalconga 05-25-2013 04:19 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magenta (Post 1143397)
So am I, and I am equally concerned about the hardline backlash. I firmly believe that moderation is the best way to defeat extremism.



What he said.

Moderation may only embolden evil people. Brits may remember Chamberlain in that regard. As for backlash, I am waiting for people to attack Muslim embassies, behead Muslims, call or the murder of Muslims and so on. So far, the people of Britain have reacted with more or less restraint. Scale, scope, frequency and savagery are among reasonable factors to consider.

Anyone who has emigrated from another nation must adopt, believe in and practice the cultural norms of that nation. In the case of mature, stable, tolerant democracies like England, that means any immigrant who protests against the government/society, advocates for the beheading of homosexuals/critics/other religions/etc. should immediately and courteously be expelled to the land from which they came. Anyone seeking to immigrate should sign a declaration saying they will seek gainful employment and conform to the cultural norms and expectations of a liberal democracy, they will abide by its laws, and they will be subject to expulsion if they disagree. I don't at all fault the Muslim nations for practicing this very equivalent thing. Every nation should.

Deathmetalconga 05-25-2013 04:22 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke (Post 1143358)
The fact is that this is an exceptional case and one that I am deeply ashamed of.

Feeling shame at the evil of others may keep you from confronting it as necessary.

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-25-2013 04:35 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD (Post 1143350)
I say broadcast nothing.

Yeah, that ones a real Catch 22 situation, hey. The public's right to be informed plays right into the hands of what these two barbarians set out to do in the first place.


Quote:

Originally Posted by zarrdoss (Post 1143356)
nice to see those "strict" gun laws are working out for you. I bet a similar incident like this would never occur in somewhere like Texas.

And yet your laws are working out so swimmingly for you in the States, aren't they? I'd like a piece of that bet.....how much do you wanna lay?

FWIW, I'm neither pro nor anti the gun stance here. But don't sit there and pretend the current US gun laws are all beer and skittles hey. Trying to tell us fundamentalism of this nature could be curbed in the States is a bloody long bow mate. I think your very recent history points markedly toward the fact that it's far from perfect too, no?
I don't want to sound like I'm being a prick here either, you're a nice guy and I enjoy your posts......but I just see a few holes that I thought desperately needed addressing too. :-)

zarrdoss 05-25-2013 05:10 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
post deleted plus 20

IDDrummer 05-25-2013 05:16 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by toddmc (Post 1143483)
Disappointed (to say the least) that this thread has degenerated into yet another gun control debate.

No kidding. I suspect a locked thread in 3, 2, 1...

BacteriumFendYoke 05-25-2013 11:53 AM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Safer in a country with four times the murder rate? I call BS.

jornthedrummer 05-25-2013 01:11 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Yes this is horrible. There is also riots going on in the suburbs of Stockholm.
No easy answer to these problems.

Midnite Zephyr 05-25-2013 02:26 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
One of our brothers senselessly slain in the street, an innocuous drummer who just happened to work for the military.

It's a tragedy, and in my mind, a simple lowly hate crime and nothing more. Chicken sh!t...

BTW, I've lived my whole life without a gun. It helps to be bigger, meaner and uglier than most other people too. My dad was from Europe, so maybe that has something to do with it. I've lived in the mid-west for a time, and I was amazed how much guns are a part of the culture there. I never even think about guns myself living over here, so it was quite an eye-opener to realize how deep this gun ownership and gun pride runs in the veins of your average, run-of-the-mill, corn-fed, American redneck.

aydee 05-25-2013 02:57 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
...

Sad that everything in the end somehow boils down to ethnic/racial profiling because, we, the recipients of the grand media buffet have absolutely nothing else to hold on to except a fleeting image or clip of a black person, a brown person, or whomever, associated with our daily diet of gruesomeness.

To quote Bob Marley, I'm not quite sure what " All the Trouble in the World" is but this global fear psychosis based on color and religion is doing a lot of damage that will take generations to undo.

What a frikkin mess.


...

zarrdoss 05-25-2013 03:04 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
post deleted plus 20

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-25-2013 03:20 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zarrdoss (Post 1143499)
My point is that you were safer when you had the right to defend yourselves.

So how safe were 13 military personnel at Fort Hood? Men taken out by a man who was considered to be one of their own? All the guns on the barracks couldn't save them could they?
Looking a little further afield, what about several thousand office workers in Manhattan high rises? On the day, there's not a gun in existence that could have solved that problem.
And although not terror related it still lends itself to the "wouldn't happen in the States because we have a right to defend" argument. What about 20 odd children at Sandy Hook? They all had a right to defend themselves too......as did those around them that managed to survive. Yet it didn't work out too well for any of them though did it?

Again, this is neither pro nor anti firearms.......it's just pro common sense. Sometimes, the right to wave guns around counts for very little at all. It's no guaranteed deterrent and certainly no guaranteed solution.

JohnnySomersett 05-25-2013 04:02 PM

Re: English drummer killed in attack.
 
Interesting debate here.

The trouble with the US and its gun legislation is the fact that the general public have the right to 'bear arms' as well as the law enforcement. Which means there is a LOT of guns about. There are guns in the UK, but very little in the grand scheme of things. I do believe that our police should carry guns and keep the law about citizens the same. Those that want to carry guns illegally already do so and I honestly think the number would not rise much with the introduction of Law Enforcement arming.

Most European countries operate in this fashion and it works great. The fact is, there is a different attitude to guns over here compared to the States and it would work differently.


As for the beheading of a British citizen on our own streets, it is essentially bringing war to our front door. The liberals among us may disagree with this next statement but everyone I've spoken to it about (I work in the supply industry and spend a lot of time 'chatting' to people of all ages and races - including Muslims) believe that this is the time to say that enough is enough, shut the borders, declare emergency and scoop up all the extremists, immigrant criminals and people that don't deserve to be here and ship them back to the rat-pit countries they belong too!

I probably spoke to upwards of 60-70 people about this over the last 2 days and EVERY SINGLE ONE agreed that that is the logical step. Even one very 'vocal' Pakistani Muslim customer of mine was FUMING and calling for them to hang - and even said he was 'sick of this country filling up with lunatics'

We are an island and we have the ability, just our government are too soft to do anything affirmative. Th European Court Of Human Rights needs to be abolished due to systematic corruption and misguided loyalties. But then again, I think anyone who breaks the law loses all rights to any rights the moment they break the law.


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