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-   -   I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107115)

feldiefeld 05-22-2013 03:50 AM

I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Wrong!!!

My post about reading led me to think about other issues and skills that drummers sometimes avoid. The next one that jumps out at me is technique. So I ranted a bit. But I stand by my rant..... So if you think that technique will harm your feel in some way or if you tell me that you're just a groove drummer and therefore don't need to work on technique, then I say, baloney! Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, and Steve Jordan all are known for great feel but they all have (had, RIP JP) great technique too.

So, if you eschew technique, please read:

http://www.bangthedrumschool.com/yes...-is-important/

Dr_Watso 05-22-2013 04:00 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I haven't really heard of this. Usually the guys who focus on "feel" understand the most about technique and how to pull out subtle sounds from their kit. It's the "play as many notes as fast as you can" guys who I find ignore technique until it starts affecting how fast they can play, at which point they will learn just enough technique to do what they are focusing on.

EarthRocker 05-22-2013 04:52 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I've always felt that feel is more important than technique, but technique is a foundation. So what does that say about feel in my eyes?

Duracell 05-22-2013 05:32 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
An endless debate. Never ending because the terms being discussed, " feel " and " technique " are only vaguely defined. Can we put this one to rest already? Perhaps focus on more important things? Like which tuning key is best for metal tuning? Or how to play 200 bpm 16th notes, on the kick, with only 2 weeks of practice...

Anon La Ply 05-22-2013 06:24 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
It's all very simple. If you don't develop good technique early then you have a hill to climb if you want to rebuild your grip and stroke. If you wait too long to correct inefficient stroke and grip then it can reach a point where it's not worth the bother, in which case you have no choice but to be a "feel drummer".

From there, as a person resigned to being a feel drummer, you can build financial security in a 9-to-5er and play a few gigs on the side playing "cool" music with other sloppy but spirited would-be musicians.

Meanwhile the players with strong technique are getting most of the gigs with great players, playing tons of godawful pop for the sake of selling drinks to drunks, and enjoying the benefits of a musician's salary, ie. chasing rats around their leaky bedsitters in the wrong part of town ;)

Craig J 05-22-2013 07:37 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Watso (Post 1142362)
I haven't really heard of this. Usually the guys who focus on "feel" understand the most about technique and how to pull out subtle sounds from their kit. It's the "play as many notes as fast as you can" guys who I find ignore technique until it starts affecting how fast they can play, at which point they will learn just enough technique to do what they are focusing on.

fully agree with this

aydee 05-22-2013 08:08 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply (Post 1142398)
It's all very simple. If you don't develop good technique early then you have a hill to climb if you want to rebuild your grip and stroke. If you wait too long to correct inefficient stroke and grip then it can reach a point where it's not worth the bother, in which case you have no choice but to be a "feel drummer".

From there, as a person resigned to being a feel drummer, you can build financial security in a 9-to-5er and play a few gigs on the side playing "cool" music with other sloppy but spirited would-be musicians.

Meanwhile the players with strong technique are getting most of the gigs with great players, playing tons of godawful pop for the sake of selling drinks to drunks, and enjoying the benefits of a musician's salary, ie. chasing rats around their leaky bedsitters in the wrong part of town ;)

Haha, superb, Grea! This says it all.

Is there something to be said about some technique being imbibed through osmosis, listening, feeling, banging around on a kit after listening to '50 ways'? Or does it always need to be in the context of rudiments, transcriptions, stick control, Berklee, etc.? Manu Katche is a totally illeterate musician, but a highly technical drummer.. ?


...

Odd-Arne Oseberg 05-22-2013 09:25 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I'm a technique drummer, so I don't need feel.

sonnygrabber 05-22-2013 10:31 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I'm a "feel" type drummer.

I like to 'feel' the groove. I like to 'feel' tight with the band. I 'feel' good about my 'technique' too!

I 'feel' that discussions about the vagaries of 'feel' vs. 'technique' are just words, and words are wind.....it's just how I 'feel'.

Play drums..

keep it simple 05-22-2013 12:31 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
You can have all the technique you like, but it still won't make up for having a 2" penis.

See - one always relies on the other ;)

Boomka 05-22-2013 12:37 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Technique: the ability to get your hands and feet to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it.

Feel: the ability to get your hands and feet to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it.

larryace 05-22-2013 04:31 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
It's a matter of development. Anyone who plays drums has both feel and technique. Granted their feel could be great or dismal, same with technique. It's 2 sides of the same coin, they're forever linked. They are not exclusive from one another. If you have great feel and not so hot technique, you can still work. Charley springs to mind. Sorry if that upsets. Just trying to provide real life examples. If you have great technique but lacking in feel, you can still work. Portnoy may fit that bill. The guys who have great technique and great feel are sought out by the best players. Vinnie springs to mind.

CreeplyTuna 05-22-2013 04:38 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I always felt technique is mostly about playing comfortably and safely. You can feel the groove all you want, but if you're wrecking your wrists, it's not going to help in the long run.

boltzmann's brain 05-22-2013 05:13 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
you guys are killing me. first of all, define "technique". are you referring to physical capability? or different ways of approaching the art of drumming mentally? are you saying that "feel" is mental only? one affects the other, and with only one or the other, the drummer is incomplete. all drummers have both, in varying proportion. that's what makes it invalid to say "this guy's better than that guy", or "feel is more important than technique". without chops, the drummer is boring and governed by his physical limitations. without feel, the drummer is lacking groove.

larryace 05-22-2013 05:33 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I think it's safe to say that technique is referring to how you move the sticks with your hands, and the footpedals with your feet. So it's a physical thing.

These threads pop up a few times a year and they're always the same. Nothing gets resolved. I can't believe I'm even posting in it.

One thing I think we can all agree on is it's better to have good technique AND good feel.

Comparing myself to myself, my feel and technique are vastly improved from 10 years ago. Feel can be learned, I'm proof. My feel now is vastly improved compared to when I first returned to drumming in 2003. I attribute that to recording EVERY gig and listening back and critiquing myself. There's no way I would have improved if I couldn't evaluate myself later on. I think feel is harder to come about than technique. Technique can be taught because it's a physical skill. Feel on the other hand is a mental/soulful thing that is not as easily taught. It's much more subjective. I mean you could be playing something with the exact right notes to groove, but if you're laying into your ride too much (for instance) it ruins the feel. So it's not the notes themselves, but how you play them. Inner kit dynamics and all that. You have to want to groove, and for me, I had to let go of the "I have to impress" mindset. It was not serving me well whatsoever. And the paradox is that once you shed the need to impress, well that's step #1 in actually impressing people. It's backwards.

But music can be anything you want. There's room for everyone. You need your groovers, and you need your technicians. I'm striving to live on groove street with a good view of technique avenue. Balance.

Bushmanic 05-22-2013 06:02 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Both?

Guru Andy,are you talking about 2" stick tip?
:p

jaka44 05-23-2013 01:52 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Really, this is the same type of hyperbole post as "learning to read music is crucial", just a different topic. Not one person that replied in that other thread said to not learn how to read. I'm pretty sure no one here if they are being honest with themselves, is going to say that I don't need technique.

Why can't people accept that there are different ways to approach playing music?

BillBachman 05-23-2013 05:40 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
The grooviest guys all use technique that allows them to do so. As a general rule, the looser you are the more groovy, and playing loose with flow requires technique for sure. A lot of people associate "technique" with speed and licks, but there's certainly a technique to playing simple deep in the pocket. Good discussion!

Brian 05-23-2013 06:46 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Technique is such an open-ended blanket word. lol But it certainly starts with the mental, not the physical.

IE playing loosely is physical, but you can't play loose if you don't think loose. You won't play behind the beat if you aren't thinking behind the beat, at least in practice.

FridgeBuzz 05-23-2013 06:46 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I spent a year working on technique with my drum teacher. He emphasized the Spivack/Wilson approach to technique and it has definitely paid off, especially when I play rock. I like to think of technique as a golf swing. If you don't maintain proper mechanics, the ball will start to hook and then you're off your game. If I could do it all over again I would have established my technique at much younger age. But, better late than never, right? There will be occasions where I'm just like "screw technique, hack away!" but even then, out of habit, I revert to what I was taught. If you get feel and technique right, it makes everything seamless which is what I'm trying to work on at the moment.

Chunky 05-26-2013 01:00 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I'm just a drummer.

It's that simple. I need both to be effective.

I don't really agree tbat the fast players only learn enough technique to help them get the job done as that implies if you like listening to say jazz you will automatically learn your instrument properly.
What kind of nonesense is that?

But I can almost see what you were getting at...

Midnite Zephyr 05-26-2013 02:28 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
It's like deja vu all over again.

My "groove" drumming was on a serious plateau for a long time, and what I realized was that I was missing some technique in my playing.

Things are drastically improving now that I woodshed a couple hours a week on my pad doing Stick Control type exercises, which I've never really done much of before. My beat/fill repertoire has expanded a lot. I'm even more motivated to play and even more confident with my drumming now because these extra capabilities are available to me.

So, yeah, learn some technique. No doubt about it. Like Uncle Larry is saying...Balance.

Anon La Ply 05-26-2013 06:22 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Some of Charlie Watts's comments here stayed with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1_6z9oqet8
It's one of the faults in my playing ... I never learned to play. I learned by watching. I should have gone to ... lessons but I never did. I learned by watching the great drummers in London. Phil Seaman, people like that.

... When I'm playing I'm hoping it will come out alright ... as Keith would say, we play by feel - which we do, really. But feel is numbers as well ...

justavisitor 05-26-2013 11:20 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Everyone's feel is different, put 10 drummers together to play the exact same rhythm and it will sounds different from each drummer.

Technique is a tool, nothing else, you either possess loads or very little, it helps to play what you "feel".

Anthony Amodeo 05-26-2013 03:20 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDw1igyuvxk

Chunky 05-26-2013 07:55 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by justavisitor (Post 1143875)
Everyone's feel is different, put 10 drummers together to play the exact same rhythm and it will sounds different from each drummer.

Technique is a tool, nothing else, you either possess loads or very little, it helps to play what you "feel".

Yes but without it you can't always play what you feel.

I also disagree with the 10 different drummers statement. Session guys make a living of being able to mimmic certain drummers feel.
It IS possible and complete command of their technique opens up that doorway for them.

Sorry if that sounds snotty, I don't mean it that way. It's just my opinion.

gretsch-o-rama 05-27-2013 11:47 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Hi guys! First post here so thank you for having me! As in regards to technique vs. feel, they are really not in opposition of each other. In fact, I honestly feel technique is really the only way to unlock feel. If you're learning something technical but it has no feeling, what point does it serve? Nothing in my opinion... It's just a bunch of exercises that really do not apply to making music... And that's what we're all here to do? Thanks Jason Burns

Morphling 05-28-2013 05:25 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply (Post 1142398)
It's all very simple. If you don't develop good technique early then you have a hill to climb if you want to rebuild your grip and stroke. If you wait too long to correct inefficient stroke and grip then it can reach a point where it's not worth the bother, in which case you have no choice but to be a "feel drummer".

From there, as a person resigned to being a feel drummer, you can build financial security in a 9-to-5er and play a few gigs on the side playing "cool" music with other sloppy but spirited would-be musicians.

I would agree 100% with this. Did the 'I'm a feel drummer' thing for about 20 years. About 9 months ago, I started getting back into music rather seriously and started attending a regular open stage with some jaw-dropping drummers in attendance.

I was quite humbled and had to be honest with myself. Why were these guys so much better-sounding than I? It was their technique. That's when I decided "OK, you're gonna fix your technique. No more putting it off."

I've been working on this very intensively for about 4 months now and my technique is lightyears better.

As is my groove playing. :)

Results vary, but MY experience tells me you need to work on both.

Boomka 05-29-2013 09:34 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo (Post 1143909)

I've always really liked Hal's stuff. However, I wish I could pick his brain and ask him where he thinks one should draw the line between immature and adult musical behaviour. At what point does one stop repetition and work entirely on other forms of practice?

The reason is actually based on the idea of building and maintaining brain-to-hand signal, which he makes a strong case for. A strong brain-to-hand signal is built by repetition. Myelin wrapping is the key and the process can continue through adulthood, though not as efficiently as in childhood.

gretsch-o-rama 05-30-2013 03:11 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomka (Post 1145060)
I've always really liked Hal's stuff. However, I wish I could pick his brain and ask him where he thinks one should draw the line between immature and adult musical behaviour. At what point does one stop repetition and work entirely on other forms of practice?

The reason is actually based on the idea of building and maintaining brain-to-hand signal, which he makes a strong case for. A strong brain-to-hand signal is built by repetition. Myelin wrapping is the key and the process can continue through adulthood, though not as efficiently as in childhood.

Honestly, I much prefer pianist Kenny Werner's musical performance psychology/philosophy to Hal Galper's... I think Werner is a better living example...

here's a bit of what he touches on... Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un3p614XExc

con struct 05-30-2013 03:54 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian (Post 1142904)
Technique is such an open-ended blanket word.

No it isn't. Put down the bong and learn something. Technique, like all words, has a definition. Words do, you didn't know that? Well now you do!

tech·nique
/tekˈnēk/
Noun
A way of carrying out a particular task, esp. the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.
Skill or ability in a particular field: "he has excellent technique"; "an athlete with a good technique".

Boomka 05-30-2013 12:02 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gretsch-o-rama (Post 1145195)
Honestly, I much prefer pianist Kenny Werner's musical performance psychology/philosophy to Hal Galper's... I think Werner is a better living example...

here's a bit of what he touches on... Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un3p614XExc

I'm familiar with Werner's stuff, and it's fine. But it doesn't answer my question about Hal.

Anthony Amodeo 05-30-2013 04:19 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomka (Post 1145060)
I've always really liked Hal's stuff. However, I wish I could pick his brain and ask him where he thinks one should draw the line between immature and adult musical behaviour. At what point does one stop repetition and work entirely on other forms of practice?

The reason is actually based on the idea of building and maintaining brain-to-hand signal, which he makes a strong case for. A strong brain-to-hand signal is built by repetition. Myelin wrapping is the key and the process can continue through adulthood, though not as efficiently as in childhood.

I think Hal is referring to someone who started their studies as a child ....did all the ground work .......and built a solid foundation through repetition when he is speaking on that

I think when that is the case one will know when that transition happens ....and everyones point of transition will be different

I agree with his point that at a certain time in ones learning process repetition becomes pointless and you need to just play music .

when one reaches that point will vary but at that point playing and using what you have replaces what once was repetition

like when he says ...you cant learn all the licks so learn the ones that appeal to you the most and use them in as many different ways possible .

also ...he is pretty much strictly speaking in terms of jazz and that if an adult practices with too much repetition it will show up in their playing ....and the last thing a jazz player wants in their playing is too much repetition

so if a jazz player has done his groundwork , built his arsenal techniques, developed certain ways that he/she enjoys playing and they are ready to fly from the nest so to speak ........then just play ...make music ...and start that leg of your journey

that leg of the journey will continue to improve upon your technique, and that ground work....just minus repetition and repetitive phrases and exercises .....and instead ideas , melody , and musical conversation

if someone is learning to play as an adult, or learning a certain style as an adult ....then they will need that repetition for many many years

eclipseownzu 05-30-2013 04:33 PM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I would like somebody to show me the absolute correct "technique" for any given drum phrase. Because I dont think there is any one correct way to play the drums.

I will use a sports analogy here, sorry for those of you who dont get the reference:

In Baseball, the goal of the pitcher is to throw the ball in such a way as to get the hitter out. There are as many different ways to do this as there are pitchers. Sure, some coach will preach mechanics (technique) and tell you that you have to do it a certain way. But for every person doing it that way there are hundreds of other successful guys doing it completely different with better results. The bottom line is, there is no one right way to throw a baseball, and there is no one right way to play the drums.

Also find it interesting that a school is preaching the need for a correct drumming technique. Sound like they are "selling" the need for a proper technique to me.

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-31-2013 12:59 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipseownzu (Post 1145365)
Because I dont think there is any one correct way to play the drums.

True.

But some ways are certainly more effective than others. Individual physiology and biomechanics mean that what's most effective for one, won't necessarily be the best way forward for another. But you can bet your bottom dollar it's worth investigating the many options available to you rather than just dismissing them out of hand and thinking that there is no such thing as "correct" so why bother? That line of thinking leads to things like stagnated development and inability to progress past a certain point....or in worst case scenarios, injuries.

There's many roads that will get you to Rome.......but that doesn't mean you stay at home and not travel any of them. You explore your options and find out the best way forward for you.

con struct 05-31-2013 01:14 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipseownzu (Post 1145365)
In Baseball, the goal of the pitcher is to throw the ball in such a way as to get the hitter out. There are as many different ways to do this as there are pitchers.

All involving technique. Great to excellent technique if we're talking about the majors. Mediocre technique won't even get you into the low-A teams.

Anthony Amodeo 05-31-2013 03:38 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipseownzu (Post 1145365)

In Baseball, the goal of the pitcher is to throw the ball in such a way as to get the hitter out. There are as many different ways to do this as there are pitchers.

and some guys build illustrious careers on one pitch

Chunky 05-31-2013 04:46 AM

Re: I'm just a "feel" drummer so I don't need technique, right?
 
I suppose it depends on how happy you are with your own playing.

I'll never be happy so, I'll always be practisong my technique and searching for new ones.

I think the aim is to achieve the feel and sound you want with the least possible effort and that's what technique is about, finding harmony between body/ mechanics and sticks/feet.


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