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-   -   Are suspension mounts on their way out? (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131974)

PorkPieGuy 05-30-2016 02:58 PM

Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I just read the review of those new Inde drums, and man, they look fantastic!

However, it got me thinking...

It seems that drum trends (just like everything else) come and go. While I may be totally incorrect, from my experience, upper-end drums tend come out with a new innovation, and then the lower lines follow. Overall, this has been a very positive experience. I remember back when suspension mounts were only on high-end drums. Now, my Basix kit (which I bought for $200) comes with suspension mounts for the two rack toms.

It seems that when suspension mounts came out, many high-end drums came with ALL suspension mounts (even the big floor toms). This is the way my Pork Pies are; the 14" and 16" floor toms have RIMS mounts. They sound great, so I'm not complaining. But I've noticed that the trend now is to have suspension mounts on the rack toms, but the floor toms use legs. Also as time has moved on, I've noticed these suspension mounts are getting smaller and smaller. Gretsch is now offering their Broadkaster drums with the old non-suspension mounted rack tom. In addition, I've noticed a lot of rack toms of the past several years being mounted on a snare stand (I've been doing this for years).

So my question is this, do y'all think that suspension mounts are actually on their way out? Will they get smaller and smaller to the point where people won't really care anymore? Do they really make THAT much difference? What do you think?

bobdadruma 05-30-2016 03:11 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
They do make a difference. I can't see them going away.
Design improvements have made them smaller and that is a good thing.
Some drummers like solid mounts and that's OK too.
I have found that if a drum is solid mounted at the center of the shell it tends to be far less resonant then if the solid mount is placed near the top of the drum.

Wave Deckel 05-30-2016 03:48 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
As already said, it does make a difference. You get more resonance, more dynamic, more sustain out of a tom if it has a good suspension system. Check for yourself. You can really hear the difference.

The reason why floortoms don't have supsension-mounts is basically because of two things.

First and foremost: They are heavier than the rack toms and this put a lot more stress on the mounting system. Some mounting systems had problems, keeping the drums in place or wore out quicker than you like.

Second thing is space. "Traditional" Floortoms don't need as much space as a mounting system plus a tom-stand. Furthermore, the technology has advanced and there have been found different ways to simulate the isolation concept of suspension systems on floortoms. Check e.g. the current Tama Starclassic floortoms. They have air-pockets in the legs AND a rubber-dampened leg-holding system, called quick-lock-tom bracket. You get lots of dynamics, resonance and sustain from the floortom this way without sacrificing stability or space on stage. Other manufacturers have come up with similar ideas.

So... will they vanish? Hopefully not. I guess they will stay.

New Tricks 05-30-2016 09:22 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I've only had one experience with suspension mounts on a Ludwig kit and they sucked.

Trying to get the toms adjusted exactly where I wanted them was troublesome. Since I had to lift the drum to make the adjustments, there was slack in the mount so I'd have to guess high, then try again.

I also wondered if the suspension mounts affected the tuning, since they are attached to the lugs.

Winston_Wolf 05-30-2016 10:08 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I think the Mapex method of suspending the mount between two lugs is the best style I've ever used. It's unobtrusive and it suspends the drum without a whole lot of metal added.

vxla 05-30-2016 11:04 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Love the DW mounts on the Collector's series. Perfectly integrated with the lugs and yes, they do make a difference.

Wave Deckel 05-30-2016 11:17 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I guess we can expect each drum company to be listed as the one with the "best" suspension-system. Mapex drummers love the Mapex solution, DW drummers the way DW does it, Sonor drummers will love their suspension system etc... ;-)

larryace 05-31-2016 12:31 AM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Suspension mounts I'm guessing are here to stay. They make the drum sing longer, no doubt about it. Yamaha's YESS system works OK too, but plenty of people will still want full suspension. What's going out IMO is deeper bass drums. I think the tide is changing there.

ineedaclutch 05-31-2016 05:10 AM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace (Post 1439249)
Suspension mounts I'm guessing are here to stay. They make the drum sing longer, no doubt about it. Yamaha's YESS system works OK too, but plenty of people will still want full suspension. What's going out IMO is deeper bass drums. I think the tide is changing there.

I can only hope so. Suspension mounts be damned, why the extra length?

keep it simple 05-31-2016 07:22 AM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Gauger are ceasing production of their alloy RIMS mounts. I'm not sure the reason for their decision. I hope it's because they have something new in the pipeline - we'll see. a shame, because they're not only the first of their type, but IMO, the best of their type too.

As for do they / it make a difference? = most certainly.

Woolwich 05-31-2016 11:31 AM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I believe in each to their own. My preferences are for shell mounts and drilled bass drums purely on a practical level as shell mounts allow for tom positioning without the "give" that suspension mounts can have. That being said, once you've got your positioning sorted out then it's no longer a problem as long as what your tom is fitted to can be set up consistently, which is why I prefer drilled bass drums. Of the suspension mounts I've tried I preferred the Mapex system for its solidity, but that being said (& this is an honest enquiry/observation) I find it hard to understand how a mounting system hard fixed to two lugs on a shell differs from a block hard fixed directly to a shell. There's no 'give' in the former sytstem as I far as I can see unless I've got the wrong end of the stick and am missing something.

Morrisman 05-31-2016 01:34 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I agree that most modern lug mount systems aren't really suspension mounts, they are just bolted to the shell in two or three places instead of one.

I remember reading that the original Rims mount was based on balancing the rim on opposite points, plus a mid point to stop the drum rocking. This would place minimal stress on the rim or shell. Most modern mounts don't do this. Instead they hold just one side of the drum, so it's unbalanced and stressed. So you might as well just bolt a bracket onto the shell like the old days.

dwsabianguy 06-01-2016 08:27 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrisman (Post 1439342)
Most modern mounts don't do this. Instead they hold just one side of the drum, so it's unbalanced and stressed. So you might as well just bolt a bracket onto the shell like the old days.

Yeah, the Opti-Mounts on my Masters kit are a good example of this. My 12" tom can sound totally gated if it isn't in just the right spot on the tom arm. The drum sounds great when I hold it in my hand, so I'm considering getting a new sort of suspension mount for it. No idea what I'd replace them with, though...

Wave Deckel 06-01-2016 08:34 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I must say that I am very satisfied with the solution Tama has come up. The toms just sing the way they should, it's easy to use and mount and very very sturdy... really nice. But I also like the way Yamahas supsension system works. Completely different design but it works pretty well, too.

T_Weaves 06-01-2016 09:08 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace (Post 1439249)
Suspension mounts I'm guessing are here to stay. They make the drum sing longer, no doubt about it. Yamaha's YESS system works OK too, but plenty of people will still want full suspension. What's going out IMO is deeper bass drums. I think the tide is changing there.

I think you're right. The deeper bass drums are starting to disappear. That said, I'm more than happy that I have one. My Saturn IV 22x20 is the best sounding bass drum I've ever played in my 49 yrs of playing.

Their tom mounts, as well as Tama's are pretty nice too. :)

mikel 06-01-2016 09:29 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I love the Yamaha design of mount. I always loved Tama drums but that bent angle iron mount on some of the range just look industrial to me.

larryace 06-01-2016 09:34 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimi Rashidi (Post 1439631)
I think you're right. The deeper bass drums are starting to disappear. That said, I'm more than happy that I have one. My Saturn IV 22x20 is the best sounding bass drum I've ever played in my 49 yrs of playing.

Their tom mounts, as well as Tama's are pretty nice too. :)

I've been noticing a lot more 16" depth bass drums lately. I just don't remember that being an option until recently.

As an aside, for a 22" bass drum, a 13.6" depth would be the golden ratio, 1.618 times 13.6 is 22. Not sure if the golden ratio can be utilized acoustically like that, I think it's more of a visual thing.

A 24" drum would get a 14.835" depth to make golden ratio.

So a 14" depth on both diameters is close to golden ratio, if that actually means anything acoustically.

I have a 22 x 20 DW. I get a fine sound from it. But it's awkwardly big.

Derek Roddy 06-01-2016 09:36 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
What I find funny about this topic is that these companies spend x amount of dollars trying to get a drum to ring as long as possible..........only to have a sound guy gate it at 1000 milliseconds. haha.

D

keep it simple 06-01-2016 09:46 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy (Post 1439638)
What I find funny about this topic is that these companies spend x amount of dollars trying to get a drum to ring as long as possible..........only to have a sound guy gate it at 1000 milliseconds. haha.

D

True, but it's the old head sustain vs. shell resonance thing again. A punchy drum with almost zero head sustain benefits tonally from greater shell resonance. It's what delivers body into the resolved sound. Many think "resonance" is all about length of note - it's not always the case :)

mikel 06-01-2016 09:49 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy (Post 1439638)
What I find funny about this topic is that these companies spend x amount of dollars trying to get a drum to ring as long as possible..........only to have a sound guy gate it at 1000 milliseconds. haha.

D


Ha ha, yea. Or for drummers to stick Moogel or duct tape to keep it down

Les Ismore 06-01-2016 09:52 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
They don't need to go away, just like anything they are open to improvement.

As we learned in another thread, Josh @ INDIE drums is reported to have said "...the rubber in them (RIMS and in the Atlas mounts) creates an oscillation in the drum where the rubber absorbs the resonance of the drum." Here ya go, you first need to point out a flaw in the current design which Josh did, calling out the rubber as a culprit. Now with that call out we're open to receiving an improvement.

Damn those rubbers causing oscillation, I want something better!

T_Weaves 06-01-2016 10:50 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mikel (Post 1439635)
I love the Yamaha design of mount. I always loved Tama drums but that bent angle iron mount on some of the range just look industrial to me.

Yeah, I don't care for those either. The newer starcast chrome mount systems were one's I was pimpin'.

indedrum 06-02-2016 01:20 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Ismore (Post 1439644)
They don't need to go away, just like anything they are open to improvement.

As we learned in another thread, Josh @ INDIE drums is reported to have said "...the rubber in them (RIMS and in the Atlas mounts) creates an oscillation in the drum where the rubber absorbs the resonance of the drum." Here ya go, you first need to point out a flaw in the current design which Josh did, calling out the rubber as a culprit. Now with that call out we're open to receiving an improvement.

Damn those rubbers causing oscillation, I want something better!

Well, Mr. Ismore,
This is what I think is better. I am working on a blog post that explains the concept behind it, but it is basically an adjustable spring mount that minimizes energy loss, and can be tuned to the drum it is mounted to. It will be available as an aftermarket add-on soon!

Les Ismore 06-02-2016 08:32 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indedrum (Post 1439775)
This is what I think is better. I am working on a blog post that explains the concept behind it, but it is basically an adjustable spring mount that minimizes energy loss, and can be tuned to the drum it is mounted to. It will be available as an aftermarket add-on soon!



When ppl say they "think" its a sure sign they don't know (for sure). Let's be 100% sure, have some sellable truth bf changing the collective mind about rubber suspension mounts.

I 'think' its a great idea, but only bc I don't know for sure. We need to see/hear it work, video would help.

Also on the FT mounts, the wing screw/nut facing sideways instead of out would save a lot of space.

indedrum 06-03-2016 12:52 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Ismore (Post 1439838)
When ppl say they "think" its a sure sign they don't know (for sure). Let's be 100% sure, have some sellable truth bf changing the collective mind about rubber suspension mounts.

I 'think' its a great idea, but only bc I don't know for sure. We need to see/hear it work, video would help.

Also on the FT mounts, the wing screw/nut facing sideways instead of out would save a lot of space.

I "think" you misinterpreted my meaning of the word think. Emphasis on the "I"- In my opinion, they are better. I still need to convince anyone who has not had a chance to try them, and I am working on videos and explanations of the design to accomplish that.


Even with the perpendicular wing screw, the height is similar to most commercially available brackets. The current design allows for more flexibility, adjusting to fit 9.5-12.7mm mounting rods, and keeps the design simple and lightweight.

PorkPieGuy 06-03-2016 03:30 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Whoever keeps posting that pics of Inde drums, can you please stop?

I really, really do not need another drum set. Like, really.

RockNGrohl 06-03-2016 04:00 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
I have a Mapex kit with their lug mounted version of a mount. I like it. Works and shows a lot of the shell's finish. I'm happy to have suspension mounts. I wonder about you 80's guys that had that those huge boxy chunky mounts and the lugs that connected top and bottom with a big ugly metal strip. The the tom arms that went right through the shell. Not asthetically pleasing and the whole shell was covered in metal! Not that anyone knew any better in those days. But I like to think drums keep getting better and better.

I think there will always be a debate about whether they really make a difference or not. Look at the Tonewood debate in the electric guitar world. Some people hear a difference some don't. And people will get so worked up about it. If your ears hear it so be it. But if my ears don't? I hear more resonance from a suspended mounted tom. Plus I just lift the drum higher when positioning it to allow for downward sag. I like 'em!

crispycritters 06-03-2016 08:23 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
When Premier marketed the re-issue Genista sets in Birch and Maple versions the Birch model had the mounting lugs bolted directly to the shell (the Maple set came with suspension mounts). I don't know how long these Birch Genistas lasted with the shell mounted lugs but I noted that the later models binned the shell mounted lugs and 'went back' to suspension mounts as standard. I think reverting back to shell mounts would be met with a cynical response and resistance from buyers.

Personally I like suspension mounts because they are (with few exceptions) pretty which is the most important thing - those Indie mounts also look great, I'd happily have those fitted to my drums.

The reality is I use twin ply heads so I probably wouldn't hear any difference regardless of which mounts were used.

drumming sort of person 06-03-2016 08:33 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wave Deckel (Post 1439150)
As already said, it does make a difference. You get more resonance, more dynamics, more sustain out of a tom if it has a good suspension system.

I don't recall asking for more resonance or sustain from my tom-toms. Suspension mounts (such as the original R.I.M.S.) did tend to prevent the "choking" that would occasionally occur on some drums that were mounted directly on the shell, but if the drums was built well and the mount had enough flex, the improvement was minimal. As for the added sustain, I play drums, not timpani.

Suspension mounts, like Tama's, Pearl's, or Sonor's, are downright hideous, add extra weight, and solve a problem that no one had (for the most part).

incrementalg 06-04-2016 06:18 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Maybe in a few years drummers will hold their noses when someone mentions RIMs just as many do today when someone mentions Keller. Eewwww.

jbonzo1 06-04-2016 07:19 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Yeah, those Keller-shell Gretsch drums really suck.

Not.

Don't care for RIMS, though.

crispycritters 06-04-2016 07:35 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by incrementalg (Post 1440158)
Maybe in a few years drummers will hold their noses when someone mentions RIMs just as many do today when someone mentions Keller. Eewwww.

I don't understand the reference, has the quality of Keller shells gone down the pan or something?

incrementalg 06-04-2016 09:51 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crispycritters (Post 1440174)
I don't understand the reference, has the quality of Keller shells gone down the pan or something?

Nah...the quality is fine. I'm busting chops because Keller has become a 4 letter word to some people looking for something more unique I guess.

indedrum 06-04-2016 11:21 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy (Post 1439977)
Whoever keeps posting that pics of Inde drums, can you please stop?

I really, really do not need another drum set. Like, really.

What, you mean like this? :)

AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken 06-05-2016 06:50 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolwich (Post 1439335)
I believe in each to their own. My preferences are for shell mounts and drilled bass drums purely on a practical level as shell mounts allow for tom positioning without the "give" that suspension mounts can have. That being said, once you've got your positioning sorted out then it's no longer a problem as long as what your tom is fitted to can be set up consistently, which is why I prefer drilled bass drums. Of the suspension mounts I've tried I preferred the Mapex system for its solidity, but that being said (& this is an honest enquiry/observation) I find it hard to understand how a mounting system hard fixed to two lugs on a shell differs from a block hard fixed directly to a shell. There's no 'give' in the former sytstem as I far as I can see unless I've got the wrong end of the stick and am missing something.

I agree with 'to each their own', but even disregarding aesthetics I can't stand drilled bass drum mounts. Depending on the size of the kick, the size of the toms, and how you like to position things I just can't get as comfortable an arrangement with a bass drum mount as I can with a tom mounted to the cymbal stand. There's just less room to move things around: you have the length of the mounting hardware and that's it.

Drumlove65 06-05-2016 07:13 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Tom positioning is more intrinsically restrictive on kick mounted systems and aesthetically they look bad. Like those who favor the aesthetics of one up one down kits, offset tom or toms to the left or right of the kick drum depending on whether one is right or left handed looks lean and mean.

I'd re title the OP to Are kick mounted tom mounts on their way out?

mrfingers 06-05-2016 07:50 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Why I like kick mounts:
you don't need to buy extra, heavy duty cymbal stands
you aren't restricted to cymbal position because of the tom
you can mount more on the cymbal stand without the tom
If you mount two toms on a stand on the left and you're rt.-handed you have a bigger arc to play when "rolling down" the toms
and a tom stand takes up more room on the left and weighs more than a kick mount.

Oh, back to the thread- I really like the Sonor and Yamaha tom mounts.

Les Ismore 06-05-2016 08:17 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken (Post 1440330)
I agree with 'to each their own', but even disregarding aesthetics I can't stand drilled bass drum mounts. Depending on the size of the kick, the size of the toms, and how you like to position things I just can't get as comfortable an arrangement with a bass drum mount as I can with a tom mounted to the cymbal stand. There's just less room to move things around: you have the length of the mounting hardware and that's it.

Slide Track mount(s)

Drumlove65 06-05-2016 11:26 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
If drummers prefer kick mounted toms then it begs the question are all these drummers abnormally tall with tremendous reach? Bo has tried to explain this to me from an engineering standpoint but I still fail to understand why manufacturers seem to place the mounting systems away from the batter side, close within most people's arm length, and toward the resonant side of the kick drum.

opentune 06-05-2016 11:37 PM

Re: Are suspension mounts on their way out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumlove65 (Post 1440393)
If drummers prefer kick mounted toms then it begs the question are all these drummers abnormally tall with tremendous reach? Bo has tried to explain this to me from an engineering standpoint but I still fail to understand why manufacturers seem to place the mounting systems away from the batter side, close within most people's arm length, and toward the resonant side of the kick drum.

You don't want the central mass of the hanging toms, especially two of them, close to the edge and toward you. Having the tom mount away from you, toward the reso side, balances and centers the mass of everything over the bass drum not on the edge of it.

I am short 5' 6" and have short arms, and never had an issue reaching toms on a bass drum mount. Yamaha and Sonor systems have much flexibility of angles too.

Bass drum mounts also save on hardware to lug around to gigs - only lighter cymbal stands are needed, not big heavy ones that support toms and cymbals. I've added all these parts up and you can save many pounds.


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