DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/index.php)
-   Drums (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   The 23" bass drum (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125222)

Matt Bo Eder 05-16-2015 09:54 AM

The 23" bass drum
 
I laughed when I first heard about Neil Peart having DW make 23" bass drums. But now that I have two Ludwig kits side-by-side, one with a 14x22 bass drum and the other a 14x24, I think I'm beginning to see the logic.

My 22" Ludwig is great, it sounds wonderful, but there are times when I wish it was just a little bigger. My 24" also sounds great, a bit bigger-sounding than the 22 as well. But there were times I wished it was just a little smaller.

I think Neil and DW were on to something. Kinda' like how Benny Greb came up with a 5.75" deep snare since he was trying to split the difference between a 5" and a 6.5" depth.

it would be really neat if I could actually try a 23" bass drum in the same room with my 22 and 24 bass drums to see if there is really that much of a difference, and the thought is intriguing. Anyone ever give it any serious thought?

gdmoore28 05-16-2015 11:50 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Bo, it would probably go something like this: while playing the 23" bass drum, there would be times when you wished it was just a little larger (like a 24"), and other times when you wished it was just a little smaller (like a 22"). No matter what we play, sometimes it's a compromise between what we have and what we want.

GeeDeeEmm

Pocket-full-of-gold 05-16-2015 01:03 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Can't help but feel it's just more peripheral wankery until we get to the actual crux of the issue here, Bo.

I'll wait for the real thread in a couple of months time when you lay it bare and espouse the merits of the 25".........or maybe, the thread after that when the 27" is determined to be the low end musical link between man and god himself.......

:-)

paradiddle pete 05-16-2015 01:19 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Err! Ummm! 27.5" ???? Stick with the 24" you know it kicks ass..

wildbill 05-16-2015 02:40 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder (Post 1352893)
... Anyone ever give it any serious thought?


No.

IMO, it's not an idea worth serious consideration.

WallyY 05-16-2015 03:32 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
I don't see the value in a 23" bass drum unless you also have an 11" tom.

larryace 05-16-2015 06:55 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally Young (Post 1352916)
I don't see the value in a 23" bass drum unless you also have an 11" tom.

I wish both of these sizes were popular. Especially the 11" tom.

I think a 23 makes sense Bo, assuming you can get any head you want.

I do feel that anything bigger than 24 is overkill though.

BillRayDrums 05-16-2015 07:10 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
My friend Tony Braunagel has a 23" bass drum from DW. It's pretty cool but heads are a pain to find.

alparrott 05-16-2015 07:49 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillRayDrums (Post 1352938)
My friend Tony Braunagel has a 23" bass drum from DW. It's pretty cool but heads are a pain to find.

This. I know you gig in SoCal where you have great drum stores all over, but 23" heads are usually special order almost everywhere. And good luck finding a case or gig bag for it.

Matt Bo Eder 05-16-2015 07:52 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace (Post 1352935)
I wish both of these sizes were popular. Especially the 11" tom.

I think a 23 makes sense Bo, assuming you can get any head you want.

I do feel that anything bigger than 24 is overkill though.

Regarding the heads, living in SoCal, I don't think getting whatever made at Remo is a big problem, but I'm sure it'll cost more. But I was just throwing out the idea, I'm not sure I want to afford buying a 23" bass drum from DW just to find out. I'm really happy with what I have, there's just that little tinge of wishing my 22" was just a little bit bigger, or my 24" was a little bit smaller.

Although, in reality, having a 23" bass drum doesn't make transporting any different - it would still be in a 24" case, so I'm not saving any effort in that department. So I might as well stick with the 24" when you look at it that way. And the 22" gives me way more "oomph" than that Signet 20 did and that's why I went up to that size.

So the smart thing would be to do nothing and play what I have. It is an intriguing thought, though.

Capital D 05-16-2015 08:34 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alparrott (Post 1352945)
This. I know you gig in SoCal where you have great drum stores all over, but 23" heads are usually special order almost everywhere. And good luck finding a case or gig bag for it.

Unfortunately even here in SoCal, the good drum shops are drying up fast. There used to be all kinds, but here in OC where I am, the closest drum only shop is in Hollywood about 1+ hours away. I do not consider Banjo Center or Sam's Ass to be good drum shops.

Man I miss West Coast Drum Center!

Capital D 05-16-2015 08:37 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
As far as 23" Bass Drums go, I'll bet they sound great and are fun to play, just like a 24 or a 22, but the real test is transport to a show. I'll stick with a 20 for live gigs.

My dream scenario is one of every drum size available in my drum room. Then I can pick and choose and experiment all day and night!

Matt Bo Eder 05-16-2015 09:27 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capital D (Post 1352955)
Unfortunately even here in SoCal, the good drum shops are drying up fast. There used to be all kinds, but here in OC where I am, the closest drum only shop is in Hollywood about 1+ hours away. I do not consider Banjo Center or Sam's Ass to be good drum shops.

Man I miss West Coast Drum Center!

There's only ProDrum for me, but there's also a Sam Ash close by that I have a relationship with, and I have no problems calling those guys and having them order me stuff.

DrumEatDrum 05-16-2015 10:39 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
No, because once you put a mic in there, and the engineer does their thing, and then you put the music over it, I don't think anyone hears the difference.

I own every Rush album and DVD. But it's not like I notice the difference in tone between when he's used a 24, a 22 and now his 23. I notice the overall production and the over all drum sound.

Mike Mangini went on tour with Dream Theater with 4 bass drums, I believe it was a 20", two 22" and a 26." From the audience point of view, I have no clue what the point was, because you couldn't hear any difference by the time the sound went through the PA.

In a small room, maybe you'll hear it. Maybe playing light jazz it makes a difference. Once a guitar player throws on the distortion pedal, I don't think anyone in the audience is going to notice.

CompactDrums 05-16-2015 11:29 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally Young (Post 1352916)
I don't see the value in a 23" bass drum unless you also have an 11" tom.

Personally I've been longing for a 9" to fill that pesky gap between the 8" and 10"... :)

TTNW 05-17-2015 01:55 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
I bet if you really wanted to you could call up DW in Oxnard and ask if you can come by and demo a 23" BD. They are very accommodating to pros and you are a working drummer so they should let you A/B a 22, 23 and 24 in their showroom.

I don't have a lot of experience with many comparisons but I have noticed that I can really hear the difference between a 20 and a 22. I have an 18 and I really like the punch and thump from a smaller bass drum. The difference between an 18 and all BDs 22 or larger is quite noticeable.

There is about a 22% increase in size from an 18 to a 22, a 10% increase from a 20 to a 22. 22 to 24 is less than 10%.

The 23 is barely any larger than a 22 and a smidge smaller than a 24.

I don't think there is much merit to the 23 inch size beyond how good it sounds as a drum. When you factor in varying depths, heads, tuning and how a player plays the drum, I would guess that most of the subtleties and nuances are less than obvious.

I'm not sure I'm correct about this but I'm definitely sure I'm not going to spend $1,500+ to find out.

I also think that Peart got behind this because he does have the opportunity to play and hear any differences within his "almost ideal" sound scenarios. He was also a new endorser of DW at the time so there was some "give and take" regarding promoting a new product.

I would love to hear from any DW members that have a 23 and can comment on this issue.

Bo, the next time you feel those 22 vs 24 urges, slightly loosen up the tuning on the 22 and tighten up on the 24 and reassess. I'd be curious what you think.

Les Ismore 05-17-2015 03:22 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
As others have eluded to, a 23 BD would need an accompanying 17" FT even out the fundamental.


A big factor is feel, something you can't imagine like sound and only bc ones not aware of it as much as sound.

A 22" feels better than a 20" and IMO only bc of head design or, I believe a 20" could be made to feel better thru drumhead design. A 22" (IMO) feels better than a 24". The bigger the bass drum the better it responds as tuning gets tighter.

Tommy_D 05-17-2015 04:14 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder (Post 1352893)
it would be really neat if I could actually try a 23" bass drum in the same room with my 22 and 24 bass drums to see if there is really that much of a difference, and the thought is intriguing. Anyone ever give it any serious thought?

Dude, you live in SoCal. Just take an afternoon and drive to the DW factory and try one out.

Matt Bo Eder 05-17-2015 04:25 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy_D (Post 1353026)
Dude, you live in SoCal. Just take an afternoon and drive to the DW factory and try one out.

The thought had occurred to me. But from where I live, DW is about a 90-minute drive away without traffic. So it's not just like zipping over to the corner store. But after considering what's been said, and how transporting wouldn't be any different from a 24" bass drum, or the sound any different as soon as I port the head and mic it up, it doesn't make sense. It is an interesting size, though.

Duck Tape 05-17-2015 05:30 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
neal pert actually said in a recent interview that since owning a 23 and a 24, he's now asked dw to develop a 23.5 and there scientists are working hard at it. It won't fit in a 23" case but it will fit in a 24 case with a towel wraped aroundit

Matt Bo Eder 05-17-2015 05:35 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Duck Tape (Post 1353105)
neal pert actually said in a recent interview that since owning a 23 and a 24, he's now asked dw to develop a 23.5 and there scientists are working hard at it. It won't fit in a 23" case but it will fit in a 24 case with a towel wraped aroundit

Then he'll want to split the difference on that and get a 23.75 ;)

wildbill 05-17-2015 05:40 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder (Post 1353106)
Then he'll want to split the difference on that and get a 23.75 ;)


23.75 is too boomy. Gonna' have to go with 23.25 for a tighter response.

Midnite Zephyr 05-17-2015 07:57 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Bo, if anyone on here could do this, you would be the man to do it. I say do it if you've got the coin.

Matt Bo Eder 05-17-2015 08:26 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr (Post 1353137)
Bo, if anyone on here could do this, you would be the man to do it. I say do it if you've got the coin.

That's just it, I don't have the coin. And in a way, it wouldn't make any sense!

gallonsloth 05-19-2015 06:53 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace (Post 1352935)
I wish both of these sizes were popular. Especially the 11" tom.

I think a 23 makes sense Bo, assuming you can get any head you want.

I do feel that anything bigger than 24 is overkill though.

I've always been interested in seeing an 11" and 15" inch tom paired together.

CommanderRoss 09-11-2017 08:39 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallonsloth (Post 1353464)
I've always been interested in seeing an 11" and 15" inch tom paired together.

I'd like to see that as well. I have a 15" floor tom that I love next to the 16. They just have a great sound together.

As for the 23" BD, I got the rare chance to play one at my local GC when they first went into production. It was my understanding that Neil had the 23 custom made for him for the Snakes & Arrows tour and public demand (basically drumming Rush fans) motivated DW to make it for the public.

I found it sounded like my 22 with the Kick Port. Boomy, but not like a 24 would be. It doesn't look much different from the front as I didn't notice it when I walked up to the set. Only when I read the tag on the set did it mention the drum sizes.

So all in all, I didn't notice enough difference to warrant the price. Not when I already have the sound I want by other means. It's not worth that kind of coin just to be different than the rest.

greenstar323 09-11-2017 10:18 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Starting a drum company and going to make kits in ONLY 23" bass drums, 11" mounted tom, and 15" floor tom.

I will send all you suckers money transfer instructions so you can start placing your orders ;)

no talent 09-12-2017 02:34 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
the 23 was a stupid idea when Neil thought it up and its still a stupid idea today. Cant ever imagine hearing a cd recording of a 23 and giving a crap that its not just a properly tuned 22 or 24.

BenjaminCamelot 09-12-2017 04:33 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by no talent (Post 1522774)
the 23 was a stupid idea when Neil thought it up and its still a stupid idea today. Cant ever imagine hearing a cd recording of a 23 and giving a crap that its not just a properly tuned 22 or 24.

I could not agree with you anymore. Apparently Neil said that he liked the sound of a 24, but it played "too loose and sloppy". Which lead him to go to a 22 but what I believe he likes about 23's are that they have the punch and bottom end of a 24 and the response and dynamics of a 22. In the end, I am not a fan of the 23" bass drum.

evilg99 09-12-2017 04:45 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
I know someone with a custom purposed vintage Ludwig 3ply kit with 13" rack tom, 15" floor tom, and a 17" bass drum. Pretty cool. An 11" tom would be even better IMO.
Craviotto made an 11" a few times, it sounded great on the MDS YouTube videos....

Here it is!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOQ4l1Z-CGM

drumming sort of person 09-12-2017 04:53 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
I have a 21" bass drum, 11", 13" and 15" toms, and a 14" snare. Love it.










Actually, no, I don't.

Les Ismore 09-12-2017 05:05 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Id go for a 23 x 14.21

drumming sort of person 09-12-2017 06:16 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Someone needs to start a drum company using the Metric system.

Matt Bo Eder 09-12-2017 06:18 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drumming sort of person (Post 1522793)
Someone needs to start a drum company using the Metric system.

Isn't that what Premiere did throughout the 70s?

beyondbetrayal 09-12-2017 06:34 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
If you want to pay a premium on skins for something that doesn't sound any different than a tight 24 or loose 22 be my guest....

It's like buying an exotic car and paying $20k for tires and $10k for an oil change, yet we both get to the same place.


I don't play 16 or 17 inch snares for the same reason. (although 13/15 is becoming common)

Lee-Bro 09-12-2017 07:13 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallonsloth (Post 1353464)
I've always been interested in seeing an 11" and 15" inch tom paired together.

My Granstar II kit's original tom configuration is: 10", 11", 14", 15". I have since acquired toms in add'l sizes.

I've set it up as a 4 piece in different config's including the 11+15 set up for a few years.

It's now serving as a rehearsal kit as a 5 piece w/ 10, 12, 15 toms.

The challenge w/ the kit is that both the 10" and 11" are both 10" deep and if I use the same heads on both and tune each drum to what I feel is the sweet spot (for those heads), they don't have enough separation in pitch, especially if I use them as the only 2 "up" toms.

That being said, I've picked up a 12" tom which is 11" deep. The 11" and 12" together as my 2-up, actually works but I prefer the 10+12 interval more.

Now, if I put an Ambassador on the 10", an Emperor on the 11", and a Pinstripe on the 12", then I can get a lot of tone separation.

I actually prefer the 11, 13, 15 setup but the 13" tom is 12" deep and the less extreme tom angles I've gotten used to over the last several years don't really accommodate using a 12" deep rack tom very well. Heck the 12" tom at 11" is a bit too much but it works for the rehearsal kit.

Matt Bo Eder 09-12-2017 08:12 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal (Post 1522798)
If you want to pay a premium on skins for something that doesn't sound any different than a tight 24 or loose 22 be my guest....

It's like buying an exotic car and paying $20k for tires and $10k for an oil change, yet we both get to the same place.


I don't play 16 or 17 inch snares for the same reason. (although 13/15 is becoming common)

I'd like to try a 15" snare one day. Jack White with the Dead Weather is using a 16" snare made from a floor tom shell. It doesn't sound any different on the records, but I bet it feels really big sonically from where the player is. I'd like to try that one day.

mpthomson 09-12-2017 08:42 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder (Post 1352893)
I think Neil and DW were on to something. Kinda' like how Benny Greb came up with a 5.75" deep snare since he was trying to split the difference between a 5" and a 6.5" depth.

Benny Greb didn't come up with anything, Sonor having been making 5.75" deep shells for over 40yrs, it's always been a standard depth for them. They just liked to go in 3/4" increments for depth. In the 80s you could get drums in 5, 5.75, 6.5, 7.25 and 8" depths, plus the piccolos.

AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken 09-12-2017 09:28 AM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Ismore (Post 1522784)
Id go for a 23 x 14.21

With that you would certainly be golden!

Push pull stroke 09-12-2017 03:29 PM

Re: The 23" bass drum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder (Post 1522807)
I'd like to try a 15" snare one day. Jack White with the Dead Weather is using a 16" snare made from a floor tom shell. It doesn't sound any different on the records, but I bet it feels really big sonically from where the player is. I'd like to try that one day.

Brass 15s were very common back in the 20s and 30s. Maybe it was a way to get the lower pitch of a field drum that people were accustomed to from marching bands, while still having good sensitivity and snare response.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com