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triitone 04-28-2017 03:11 PM

Fast...
 
Still being very new to drumming, I am trying to get a general idea of what is meant by FAST. You read things where someone says that a drummer has fast hands, a fast foot, or is fast with a double pedal. Is there some sort of general definition of fast? If someone can play 1/16 notes on the snare at 180 BPM, is that fast? Or does fast not begin until 280 BPM? Does it differ if they are moving around the kit as opposed to just playing the snare? Is the definition different if they are plying singles vs. doubles? What is fast on the bass drum? How about with a double pedal? Does fast differ by genre?

Thanks.

WallyY 04-28-2017 03:36 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Devoid of musicality it's simply a higher number of notes within the bar of the time signature.

I suspect the human impression of fast is relative to the unpredictable change from slow.

GruntersDad 04-28-2017 03:57 PM

Re: Fast...
 
No more of a definition than saying some cars go fast. Race cars go fast. Depending on the racing class, some go faster than others. In drumming , fast , ruins more young drummers than anything. But there is no number to achieve fast.

Dr_Watso 04-28-2017 05:23 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Yea, like wally said... People who aren't musicians especially tend to think of "fast" in relative terms. In fact, I've actually had guitar players get frustrated because they told me they wanted me to play "faster" so I did... Well, turned out, what they meant is they just wanted to play at a smaller subdivision, usually 16ths against the pulse rather than 8ths for example. I guess to them, 16ths were "twice as fast", while us drummers just think of it as more notes at the same speed/tempo.

Alex Sanguinetti 04-28-2017 05:54 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Fast is a subjective definition, but let me give you some fast examples that are unquestionable fast.

* If you play jazz, playing at 400 BPM is pretty "up (fast) tempo":

Here is an example (Stan Levey on drums): VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmIxswvPByA

* Or you can undoubtedly say that Ronald Brunner Jr. is a fast drummer: VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fdUzFz1_aQ

If you donīt really study the instrument seriously youīll find very hard to understand what is fast (or actually anything), is like everything, ACTIVE involment in something starts giving you KNOWLEDGE/OBJECTIVE APPRECIATION

Best regards!

Icetech 04-28-2017 05:58 PM

Re: Fast...
 
I define fast as how quickly using comic sans will make people not read a post :)

pgm554 04-28-2017 06:22 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Classically speaking ,there are very well defined BPM tempos.

See:

http://www.redheadmusic.com/pdf/list..._Felter_CD.pdf

Alex Sanguinetti 04-28-2017 06:33 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pgm554 (Post 1498984)
Classically speaking ,there are very well defined BPM tempos.See:

http://www.redheadmusic.com/pdf/list..._Felter_CD.pdf

These are JAZZ tempos...

pgm554 04-28-2017 06:51 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1498987)
These are JAZZ tempos...

Which are in line with classical .
BPM is BPM


Largo is 40-60 BPM
Larghetto is 60-66 BPM
Adagio is 66-76 BPM
Andante is 76-108 BPM
Moderato is 108-120 BPM
Allegro is 120-168 BPM
Presto is 168-200 BPM
Prestissimo is 200+ BPM

He's just giving examples.

Alex Sanguinetti 04-28-2017 06:58 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pgm554 (Post 1498993)
Which are in line with classical .
BPM is BPM


Largo is 40-60 BPM
Larghetto is 60-66 BPM
Adagio is 66-76 BPM
Andante is 76-108 BPM
Moderato is 108-120 BPM
Allegro is 120-168 BPM
Presto is 168-200 BPM
Prestissimo is 200+ BPM

He's just giving examples.

They are not, hahaha!

pgm554 04-28-2017 08:51 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1498994)
They are not, hahaha!

Let's just say we disagree on this subject because I don't want to get in a pissing match.

Dr_Watso 04-28-2017 09:31 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Can you two stop fighting, take your jazz tempos and go play outside?



Also "jazz tempos" is one of the silliest phrases I've heard. And I sit around making up silly phrases as a past-time.

Alex Sanguinetti 04-28-2017 09:48 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pgm554 (Post 1499006)
Let's just say we disagree on this subject because I don't want to get in a pissing match.

Iīm pretty sure you are not a profi musician, otherwise you would know that at 168 to 200 ("Presto" in "your" classical list), or up to much higer is not Up Tempo in Jazz.

* Donīt confuse disagreeing with being wrong.

A pissing match? post a VIDEO of your Jazz Playing please... (Iīm posting mine here)

Here me playing about 200 BPM, as you can see itīs clearly a MEDIUM TEMPO, still basically phrased in triplets:

VIDEO of me at about 200 BPM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t0XzNlIdu8

Icetech 04-28-2017 10:40 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1499013)
Iīm pretty sure you are not a profi musician, otherwise you would know that at 168 to 200 ("Presto" in "your" classical list), or up to much higer is not Up Tempo in Jazz.

* Donīt confuse disagreeing with being wrong.

A pissing match? post a VIDEO of your Jazz Playing please... (Iīm posting mine here)

Here me playing about 200 BPM, as you can see itīs clearly a MEDIUM TEMPO, still basically phrased in triplets:

VIDEO of me at about 200 BPM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t0XzNlIdu8

Damn that's some nice playing...

Alex Sanguinetti 04-28-2017 11:16 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1499013)
...VIDEO of me at about 200 BPM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t0XzNlIdu8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icetech (Post 1499020)
Damn that's some nice playing...

Thank you for your nice words!

pgm554 04-29-2017 12:25 AM

Re: Fast...
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1499013)
Iīm pretty sure you are not a profi musician, otherwise you would know that at 168 to 200 ("Presto" in "your" classical list), or up to much higer is not Up Tempo in Jazz.

* Donīt confuse disagreeing with being wrong.

A pissing match? post a VIDEO of your Jazz Playing please... (Iīm posting mine here)

Here me playing about 200 BPM, as you can see itīs clearly a MEDIUM TEMPO, still basically phrased in triplets:

VIDEO of me at about 200 BPM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t0XzNlIdu8

You wanna see my chops?
I play orchestral and rudimental.
Plenty of my stuff online.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7k2d9ZswgE

Try playing this at 130

Alex Sanguinetti 04-29-2017 12:54 AM

Re: Fast...
 
I wanted to see your JAZZ chops...We were talking about Jazz, or? Or the next thing will be Ikebana?


I put you an example playing at the tempos you clasified as "FAST" in Jazz and proved you they were MEDIUM, thatīs it END OF THE CONVERSATION (you are wrong and Iīm correct).

The other thing I donīt understand is why I should play Tornado for you, you didnīt play it on that video you linked yourself (yes, I can read music and I NOTICED, what can you do?, hahaha), you just played "something"... at around 100.

Please, donīt make me comment more please...

Accept your mistake or say nothing...Anyway, no more from me.

pgm554 04-29-2017 01:44 AM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti (Post 1499051)
I wanted to see your JAZZ chops...We were talking about Jazz, or? Or the next thing will be Ikebana?


I put you an example playing at the tempos you clasified as "FAST" in Jazz and proved you they were MEDIUM, thatīs it END OF THE CONVERSATION (you are wrong and Iīm correct).

The other thing I donīt understand is why I should play Tornado for you, you didnīt play it on that video you linked yourself (yes, I can read music and I NOTICED, what can you do?, hahaha), you just played "something"... at around 100.

Please, donīt make me comment more please...

Accept your mistake or say nothing...Anyway, no more from me.

From what I can see, your 200 bpm was basically using cut time.


100 bpm?
Try 120 or 126.
And people pay to take lessons off of you?


Play professionally?
I've played with some fairly famous people and $50 to $75 bucks a gig don't pay for much in the bay area.
$100k is poverty wages in SF.

It's just a hobby these days,my starving musician days are long gone.

You say you met Alphonse Mouzon?
He was pretty much broke and playing Holiday Inn stuff before he died.
I played with Donald Bailey(he played sax as well as drums) a couple of times and he pretty much ended up the same way.

opentune 04-29-2017 02:14 AM

Re: Fast...
 
How fast is fast? How long is a string?
Don't worry about words and speed, see what it gets you? Arguments.

Just play man, just play. You're on a journey, enjoy it, stop worrying about speed or how fast, it will come. There is actually plenty of incredible slow drumming.

JustJames 04-29-2017 03:28 AM

Re: Fast...
 
This thread pretty much explains why a focus on speed is utterly irrelevant.

If pissing contests are your thing, do sports, not music, because in sport speed really is an indicator of how well you are doing.

Think of music as a language. Language mastery is not synonymous with how fast the words come out, nor even how big the words are, but how powerful the communication is.

SmoothOperator 04-29-2017 04:17 AM

Re: Fast...
 
There are at least two ways of interpreting fast, one physically hitting more notes per second, and counter intuitively the perception of tempo. A good example is the ballroom dance specification of tempo which is measured in measures per minute, rather than beats per minute because the measures can be sub divided different ways.

Seafroggys 04-29-2017 05:50 AM

Re: Fast...
 
I know that speed is realitive, but I wouldn't classift 16th at 180 bpm to be that fast. I thought that was pretty uptempo in middle school, but quickly grew out of that mindset.

Stroker 04-29-2017 06:26 AM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJames (Post 1499075)
This thread pretty much explains why a focus on speed is utterly irrelevant.

If pissing contests are your thing, do sports, not music, because in sport speed really is an indicator of how well you are doing.

Think of music as a language. Language mastery is not synonymous with how fast the words come out, nor even how big the words are, but how powerful the communication is.

You nailed it, JJ!!!!!

Alex Sanguinetti 04-29-2017 09:18 AM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seafroggys (Post 1499082)
I know that speed is realitive, but I wouldn't classift 16th at 180 bpm to be that fast. I thought that was pretty uptempo in middle school, but quickly grew out of that mindset.


Yes, Seafroggys, you are correct!

Since 180 BPM in sixteenths are 720 strokes per minute is actually not fast by any standard, especially with the hands combined, that was what we were talking about.


Best regards!

Someone's Dad 04-29-2017 11:06 AM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker (Post 1499085)
You nailed it, JJ!!!!!

Agreed. Fine post from JustJames, but how long did it take him to type it? I'm banging out my posts at almost 100 WPM. And I never make a mistook...

Stroker 04-29-2017 05:59 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Someone's Dad (Post 1499095)
Agreed. Fine post from JustJames, but how long did it take him to type it? I'm banging out my posts at almost 100 WPM. And I never make a mistook...

Roaring with laughter! :)

Macarina 04-29-2017 06:28 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icetech (Post 1498976)
I define fast as how quickly using comic sans will make people not read a post :)

I did a spit take on this one.

toddbishop 04-29-2017 06:28 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seafroggys (Post 1499082)
I know that speed is realitive, but I wouldn't classift 16th at 180 bpm to be that fast. I thought that was pretty uptempo in middle school, but quickly grew out of that mindset.

It's pretty fast. Played on many/most percussion instruments, singles at that speed are passably a long tone. It's very fast for playing musically on the drumset-- playing bop at half note = 180, most drummers will struggle to play much of anything; a samba or funk with mostly 16th notes would sound silly.

Here's a list of fast tempos for bop and modern playing-- normal-fast where really good players can play a lot of stuff is in the half note = 140-150 range. Above about 160 is special-occasion fast. Above about the high 170s things get really silly, and it gets progressively harder to play a lot of 8th notes-- functionally 16th notes, since these are 2/2 tempos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgm554 (Post 1498984)

Thanks for that, that's very useful.

Dr_Watso 04-29-2017 07:05 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Okay, this is getting weird.

"Jazz tempos" are not any faster, slower, or different from any other tempo. The classical tempo markings/names, reference songs, and all related stuff is just organizational; ways to convey tempos or recall them.

A tempo is a tempo and a bpm is a bpm. Frankly, a lot this is almost arbitrary or revolves around how someone "feels" a piece of music and decides to notate it so it can be written down. The entire reason we use the term "sub-division" is so that we can relay that "relative to the tempo, beat, BPM or whatever you want to call it, you play this many notes per beat".

There is no point when music is magically fast or slow. Those are RELATIVE terms. Compared to 120, 130 is "fast". The opposite would also be true. Playing 16ths at 120 technically means you're playing more notes per beat, or "faster" relative to say 8ths. The thing is the tempo or speed of the song has not changed, it's still the same "speed" as it was before you started playing in triplets or 16ths or whatever subdivision you want.

TL:DR - 1bpm is 1bpm. 120bpms is 120bpms. This does not depend on the style of music and it is the same speed regardless what style of music you're playing.

Seafroggys 04-29-2017 07:28 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by toddbishop (Post 1499129)
It's pretty fast. Played on many/most percussion instruments, singles at that speed are passably a long tone. It's very fast for playing musically on the drumset-- playing bop at half note = 180, most drummers will struggle to play much of anything; a samba or funk with mostly 16th notes would sound silly.

Well like I said, speed is relative and what works for one thing at a certain tempo wouldn't work at another, like the examples you gave.

In a purely clinical sense, sitting down at a drumpad and playing singles, 180 bpm is not ungodly fast. I will concede that it is quick, yeah, but its not unobtainable to even drummers who have been playing < 5 years. I made snare for my winter show freshman year and it was at 180, I had only been playing about two and a half years at that point, and even though I had to practice I was able to play at that speed.

And going away from the tight marching sound, look at Deep Purple's Burn, which clocks around 185, and Ian Paice does two-measure long single stroke bursts around the snare and toms, and even with those old fat early 70s Ludwig drums, you can still distinguish the notes. I did end up doing a transcription for it when I found a drums-only bootleg, and discovered that he even did some sextuplets at that speed on occasion, but at that point, to go off what you said, it sounds like a solid tone at that speed, quite indistinguishable from a buzz roll.

toddbishop 04-29-2017 08:12 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Look at it this way, 32nd notes @ quarter note=90 is at the low end for normal open roll speed, but it's in the ball park. Played on a dry-sounding instrument, to me that's an open, textured roll-- on an instrument with a lot of overtones, it's basically a pure long tone. On Burn, he's plays a lot of accents on the fills, which helps individual notes stand out-- where he doesn't accent them, you get the same long tone effect I'm talking about.

JustJames 04-29-2017 10:45 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Someone's Dad (Post 1499095)
Agreed. Fine post from JustJames, but how long did it take him to type it? I'm banging out my posts at almost 100 WPM. And I never make a mistook...

I measure my typing speed using LPM not WPM because it's more consistent, and rate speeds based on polka speed ranges.

Also, the plural of tempo is not tempos, it is tempi.

Ya bunch of drongi!

iwearnohats 04-30-2017 05:43 AM

Re: Fast...
 
To try to answer Triitone in the way he may have actually been asking:

Are you talking about pure speed of single strokes/double strokes?

if so, I would suggest 16th notes at 180bpm is a good baseline that you should aim to achieve (try and hold it for a minute), but it is not 'that fast'. Without focusing too much on speed (instead focus on accuracy and control), being able to play comfortably at 200-220bpm will give you pretty good facility overall around the kit.

These days, single strokes with the hands at 250-260 is becoming pretty standard with metal drummers. If you can play at 240 though, then that is certainly nothing to sneeze at and will certainly mean you are more than capable of handling most types of music assuming you have the control and musicality to go with it.

For points of reference, 16th notes at 240 is 960 hits in a minute, the official world record is 1208 hits by Tom Grossett (unless it's been beaten) which works out to 302bpm. If you can play a minute at 240bpm then chances are you are probably capable of playing short bursts anywhere between 270-300 - most likely that is going to more than you'll ever need :)

mrfingers 04-30-2017 05:02 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Now I'm really confused!
If 16ths are at 240 how does it figure to be (x4) 960 in a minute? BPM = BPM or is there something I'm missing here?

opentune 04-30-2017 05:15 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfingers (Post 1499249)
Now I'm really confused!
If 16ths are at 240 how does it figure to be (x4) 960 in a minute? BPM = BPM or is there something I'm missing here?

Because 4 x 240 = 960

I read all this as 240 beats in a minute with (1e+a.....) or 4 for each beat.

toddbishop 04-30-2017 05:16 PM

Re: Fast...
 
16th notes @ quarter note = 240 BPM == 960 notes per minute

Dr_Watso 04-30-2017 05:34 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfingers (Post 1499249)
Now I'm really confused!
If 16ths are at 240 how does it figure to be (x4) 960 in a minute? BPM = BPM or is there something I'm missing here?

Are you equating a certain bpm with subdivisions like 16ths? Subdivisions are a division of a beat, not a certain speed.

You could play 16ths at 1 bpm. 4 notes over 1 minute. (8ths would be 2 notes over the whole min)

2 bpm 16ths would be 8 notes over a min.

You can keep going with that formula.

GruntersDad 04-30-2017 05:46 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Seems like a lot of confusion with Beats per Minute/ notes per minute/strokes per minute, etc. It also seems we have chased the OP away.

mrfingers 04-30-2017 05:46 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Now i get it. It's not 16ths, it's just BPM. Could be any note value, then multiply for reference...

Dr_Watso 04-30-2017 05:55 PM

Re: Fast...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfingers (Post 1499257)
Now i get it. It's not 16ths, it's just BPM. Could be any note value, then multiply for reference...

Just the fact that you're using the term "note value" means you're definitely on the right track. The note value expressed in fractions refers to how many notes of that value can fit in the space of the beats. The total fraction actually refers to the whole bar or set of 4 beats if in 4/4 music. So over the bar of music, if you're playing every 16th note, you'll end up with 16 notes played over the 4 beats. If playing 8ths (2 per beat) you end up with 8 at the end of the set of 4.

Clearing up nicely now I imagine! Another thing to keep in mind is that just because a note has a vale of 16th does not always mean you'll play 4 of them in a single beat... More often than not, you won't. It's just a way to group notes so we know how close together they are to the surrounding ones.


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