What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

unfunkyfooted

Silver Member
Another innovation of Suzuki was to deliberately leave out the large amount of technical instructions & exercises found in many beginners' music books of his day. He favored a focus on song-playing over technical exercise, and asked teachers to allow students to make music from the beginning, helping to motivate young children with short, attractive songs which can themselves be used as technique building exercises. Each song in the common repertoire is carefully chosen to introduce some new or higher level of technique than the previous selection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
Matt revealed Stickit to be same person who used to be Tommycanuhearme unter anderem...
mattsmith said:
FRAUD TROLL ALERT!!!

I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN.

HE CAN NEVER RESIST POSTING THOSE LUDWIGS

STICKIT IS THE SAME GUY WHO WAS TOMMYCANUHEARME, WHITE DRUMMER, MAD MAX, JUSTSTICKINAROUND AND JOHNNYRINGO. HE'S REALLY A NOTORIOUS FORUM AND YOUTUBE TROLL FROM SAN ANTONIO NAMED MARK.
 

Bernhard

Founder Drummerworld
What's the deal with these returning trolls, are they banned as soon as they are discovered, or do they have a "new change" everytime they sign in again under a new nickname?
Which one do you mean? Must be somebody with a low postcount, but don't see one here the last 50 replies? Help...

Bernhard
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
The keyboard player (Alan Pascua)
Alan Pasqua is a terrific keyboard player! I love his work with Allan Holdsworth, and also the trio efforts with Peter Erskine and Dave Carpenter respectively another bass player which I forgot the name of...

All while playing a song that changes tonal center (effectively being in a new key) 18 times each chorus (I just had to pick up my guitar and run though it to count them, I could never remember a song that complicated).
Actually it's mostly merely II-V-I sequences and such, so I don't think you really have to establish a new key everytime.
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
What's the deal with these returning trolls, are they banned as soon as they are discovered, or do they have a "new change" everytime they sign in again under a new nickname?
 

JPW

Silver Member
When I started learning music theory it was amazing how fast things opened up as opposed to just figuring things out by ear. Even reading notation slowly allowed me to learn tunes like Spain that would have taken years to work out by ear. I don't have time to spend years and years working out the things I head that I want to do on a drum kit.
Exactly, and the older you get the less time you will have in your hands (both years of life and hours a day for practice). So why make things slower than they already are with learning..?
 

Aeolian

Platinum Member
Another little story about reading and interpretation. A couple of years ago I went to see some friends at a little lounge playing jazz. The guitar player was Ken Harrill. Ken has toured with Eric Martin of Mr. Big and a lot of the early Guitar Hero tracks (before it became cool for original artists to cut them) were him. Ken has legitimate rock cred. But at this gig someone asked if they could play All The Things You Are. The keyboard player (Alan Pascua) was kicking bass and said he knew it, so Ken (who hasn't played it in many years) pops open his Real Book and starts playing the head. Then he launches into about 5 choruses of solo, all the time intently following the chart. After a couple of times around I realize that he's looking at the changes and melody line and it's kind of like how when you're talking to someone and in the back of your head you're thinking of alternate ways to put it, or which adjective would fit best. Kind of a parallel processing thing. Well, Ken was doing that while reading the song. He improvised a killer solo by looking ahead and coming up with the right adjective and emphasis for where he was, where he had been, and looking ahead to where he wanted to go. All while playing a song that changes tonal center (effectively being in a new key) 18 times each chorus (I just had to pick up my guitar and run though it to count them, I could never remember a song that complicated).

This took phenomenal reading chops. Former roommates told me that years ago they'd come home and find him with Benny Goodman transcriptions just practicing his reading. None of that has affected his ability to rock and bring down the house. I know, I've stood next to him on gigs feeling two feet tall as my limited musical background left me with no place to go after he'd reeled off some killer part. Being a passionate street player didn't cover it, as he could match me soulful bend for soulful bend.

Again, it's not an either/or situation.

This thread has got me calling some folks to get lessons in reading. I can read a single line in time. For years, I've always written out breaks and specific hits in songs. Helps me remember them, and I might count them out for awhile until I "feel" it. It also helps make sure I'm doing the same thing as other folks in the band. That's on the and of the second bar, or it's a dotted 8th there, or whatever. But now that I'm trying to focus on the drums, the notation I see in books and magazines throws me. I can't quite grasp how things line up and various things are held.

When I started learning music theory it was amazing how fast things opened up as opposed to just figuring things out by ear. Even reading notation slowly allowed me to learn tunes like Spain that would have taken years to work out by ear. I don't have time to spend years and years working out the things I head that I want to do on a drum kit. So it's get one of the pro drummers I know to set up some formal lessons and get the fundamentals of reading down. Then I can rummage though the magazines and books, pick out the things I like and add them to my vocabulary. The musicality has been there from years and years of playing with bands on both guitar and drums. Learning to read doesn't change that. It'll just give me more options.

I'm going away from guitar and focusing on drums because I want to just lay down grooves and watch people dance. No aspirations of going pro. Been there as a guitarist, and got it out of my system. I'll probably never get to where I can sight read Garibaldi linear patterns at tempo. But if I can get to where I can understand them as written, work them out and bring them up to tempo, then I'll be happy.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Yeah, but if you spend all of your time learning technique and you forget about musicality, I don't feel like that would make you a better player.
But why would learning more about music cause you to forget something you already know about music? This I do not understand.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
Yeah, but if you spend all of your time learning technique and you forget about musicality, I don't feel like that would make you a better player.
I hear you man, but again it's not an either/or. You're always working at those things together hand in hand. And for every notable exception to the rule, almost all of the guys who end up foregoing their technical studies thinking it will in someway make them musically pure live to regret it, especially when they discover that their lack of a basic skills limits their ability to express themselves musically. So in their cases they often may have all this music inside them but go crazy never being able to express it. According to the teachers I've worked with /and I believe this/...Simplified edited musical purity most often comes from first acquiring the technique then taking what you need from that, not starting with little or nothing then hoping for the best. If music was that easy everybody would be great at it. Very few drummers/ and again there are the notable exceptions/ perform simplified musical purity out of the gate because in most cases that would be the chicken before the egg.
 

Duckenheimer

Senior Member
Yeah, but if you spend all of your time learning technique and you forget about musicality, I don't feel like that would make you a better player.
Forgetting about musicality will obviously worsen your playing.

And an extra 500 calories a day for gaining muscle or energy and forgetting about the actual physical activity will just make you fatter.

Etc.

But all other things being equal, or approached reasonably sanely, technique and extra potatoes can provide immeasurable improvements to the real meat of your chosen endeavours.
 

Drums101

Senior Member
Growing up is a continual experience of having your views challenged. Learning is having your views challanged. But growing up and learning new things doesn't mean forgetting something or losing anything to make room for the new stuff you know.

I've never understood the notion that learning something entails some sort of sacrifice.
Yeah, but if you spend all of your time learning technique and you forget about musicality, I don't feel like that would make you a better player.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Maybe, but we have to remember that a lot more people read these threads than post on them. This thread has had 3,421 views with only 265 posts. I like to think a lot of those 3,421 are young people who are looking for advice and guidance, if you want to call it that.

So there is, I think, a positive result than can come from this sort of thread. Maybe there's only one kid who's been reading this whole thing and thinks to himself, "Yeah. Learning more about music, learning how to read the notes. Why not? I think I'd like to do that."

In that case this is worth every word posted here, in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more J.

That was exactly my angle in the response to Wy. The Stickit's - Tommycanyouhearme's - Johnny Ringo's of the world may not have been sold, but if he is what you guys are saying he is, then he was never going to buy it anyway.

However, I for one have garnished a lot out of this thread and will stake just about everything I own on the fact that I wouldn't be alone. I've found interesting threads full of good info here on DW that date back to '05 or '06. This thread WILL provide value to someone pondering a simliar question in 2015......I'm sure of it. Which is why I'm also sure that closing such discussions off to those on the 'outside' and keeping a discussion about reading limited to only those who can read, serves no purpose. As I already stated, if there was no debate, there would be no need for discussion in the first place and therefore no reason for good judgement and sound advice to be revealed.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Oh, he has beautiful drums and is justifiably complimented any time his latest incarnation shows them off. It was just that when he resurfaced again as Stickit, he was calling everyone mate, so as to imply he wasn't American, probably due to all the recent problems his tommycanuhearme persona had caused. Still he can never resist posting those drums. Now I also see he had even posted yet another video of that bar band he likes showing off. Incredible.

I suppose that reappearing again and again on drum forums under different names is a cheaper way of exploring your inner child than counseling, but after years of fantatic obsession and habitual youtube trolling I would just like him to go away.

So to answer the threadstarter's question...the reason we have these kinds of threads is mostly because a small handful of middle aged drummers with issues, and short on self esteem, vent their frustrations by punking drum forums. It's really no more than 4-5 hardcores and you see the same ones every time on most of the forums.

I guess we all should have known this never was a real issue with 2 sides to begin with, because the concept of not wanting to learn/ as opposed to having trouble with etc / anything that would help you is so naturally counterproductive.
Maybe, but we have to remember that a lot more people read these threads than post on them. This thread has had 3,421 views with only 265 posts. I like to think a lot of those 3,421 are young people who are looking for advice and guidance, if you want to call it that.

So there is, I think, a positive result than can come from this sort of thread. Maybe there's only one kid who's been reading this whole thing and thinks to himself, "Yeah. Learning more about music, learning how to read the notes. Why not? I think I'd like to do that."

In that case this is worth every word posted here, in my opinion.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
Those are some really sweet drums in his collection. Good God. I'm drooling over the Slingerlands and the pearl Ludwig set.
Oh, he has beautiful drums and is justifiably complimented any time his latest incarnation shows them off. It was just that when he resurfaced again as Stickit, he was calling everyone mate, so as to imply he wasn't American, probably due to all the recent problems his tommycanuhearme persona had caused. Still he can never resist posting those drums. Now I also see he had even posted yet another video of that bar band he likes showing off while he was working his fake nationality routine. Incredible.

I suppose that reappearing again and again on drum forums under different names is a cheaper way of exploring your inner child than counseling, but after years of fantatic obsession and habitual youtube trolling I would just like him to go away. And I'm not buying this fake olive branch gimmick for a minute, and anyone who has seen this guy in action over the years knows it too.

So to answer the threadstarter's question...the reason we have these kinds of threads is mostly because a small handful of middle aged drummers with issues, and short on self esteem, vent their frustrations by punking drum forums. It's really no more than 4-5 hardcores and you see the same ones every time on most of the forums. They play a kind of drum troll forum circuit, because the minute they're banned from one place they're somewhere else the next day.

I guess we all should have known this never was a real issue with 2 sides to begin with, because the concept of not wanting to learn something/ as opposed to having trouble with etc / that would help you is so naturally counterproductive as to be obvious to almost anyone.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
I kind of agree that if you work on a lot of technical stuff, you will play more technical stuff and your view could definitely change.
Growing up is a continual experience of having your views challenged. Learning is having your views challanged. But growing up and learning new things doesn't mean forgetting something or losing anything to make room for the new stuff you know.

I've never understood the notion that learning something entails some sort of sacrifice.
 

Drums101

Senior Member
I kind of agree that if you work on a lot of technical stuff, you will play more technical stuff and your view could definitely change.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Sorry to state this again, but surely only those who can read are qualified to discuss reading??? I would not challenge a person on Mandarin if I did not speak Mandarin. Seriously. I challenge any person to speak of the negative conotations of speaking Mandarin in China.
I have to disagree mate.

I honestly think this sort of debate is the whole purpose of a discussion forum in the first place. There's been a lot of knowledge and experience imparted in this thread. That can only be a plus for anyone pondering whether or not to learn going forward. When information is witheld by 'those in the know', then how can anyone else benefit from it in the future? You guys that can read would have no need to discuss the topic at all and anyone left wondering if they should/shouldn't would be none the wiser........all we'd have is discussions on double pedals, Evans versus Remo or 'what miracle cure can I find to increase my single stroke speed without practising'.

Surely these things should be open to everyone? The upside to learning to read has been well touted and real world examples have been provided. To me documenting these experiences and countering the "don't need to read" argument with real life applications does nothing but further the cause. YMMV, but I don't need to be an electrician to see the benefits of a light bulb, nor do I need to be a mechanic to discuss the relevancy of the internal combustion engine.

The way I see it, the benefits in learning to read have been well highlighted in this thread.......there's no garantees that would have occured had those who dispute its merits, held their tongues.

For mine, that's what this place is all about......at least it's certainly why I come here.

Now, I'm thinking of getting a new pedal, what would you recommend........ :)
 
S

Stickit

Guest
Those are some really sweet drums in his collection. Good God. I'm drooling over the Slingerlands and the pearl Ludwig set.
Thanks, yes for a measley troll I've had some nice kits and I enjoy playing them.
 
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