Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud?

J

Jammin' Jamin 2112

Guest
It's quite an anomaly considering that Lars never used double-bass for a groove in any other Metallica song (He of course used it for little bursts, like in One). Then there's the fact that, as far as I can tell, Metallica never played Dyers Eve as part of a live set back in their day. Youtube has bootleg and pro shot videos of almost every concert imaginable, and I can only find one example of Metallica playing Dyer's Eve in the 80's or 90's, as part of an audience-requested encore. In that video Lars skips the double-bass part like he does in their more recent concerts. I've seen zero evidence that Lars was ever able to play the studio version of that song.

Possible explanations:
  • Lars actually did play it in studio. He practiced double-bass until his stamina was good enough to play that one track. Then he got lazy and let his calves get out of shape. This makes him an unrespectable drummer, in my opinion. Dave Lombardo still plays his double-bass as fast as on their old tracks, and he's like 50 years old.
  • Complete fraud. The track overdubbed a sped-up recording of Lars doing the double-bass groove.
  • Performance-enhancing drugs for that track. We know that Lars used to do a lot of cocaine.
 

Arky

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Why are you even cracking your brain about this? What if the answer is 'yes', what if it's 'no'? What difference does that make to your personal life?
Just trying to point out that there might be slightly more important things on this planet than finding the answer to your question.

I'd rather invest the time even thinking about this into actually playing drums. I bet it'll make you noticeably better.
 

Arky

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Didn't mean to offend anybody. I was just thinking aloud.

Personally I think those 'bursts' on "One" are damn impressive and very precise. This alone would let me assume that Lars (provided it was actually him on that recording) had some nice double bass skills, at least at that time. Once you can get those bursts that accurate you'd have way more double bass stuff in your arsenal so I wouldn't rule out that Lars did everything on "Dyer's Eve" himself. I'd assume that the recording was done with lots of punch-ins/editing though.
 
J

Jammin' Jamin 2112

Guest
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Why are you even cracking your brain about this? What if the answer is 'yes', what if it's 'no'? What difference does that make to your personal life?
Just trying to point out that there might be slightly more important things on this planet than finding the answer to your question.

I'd rather invest the time even thinking about this into actually playing drums. I bet it'll make you noticeably better.
This is a forum. We're allowed to talk about trivial bullshit.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

I've seen zero evidence that Lars was ever able to play the studio version of that song.

Possible explanations:
  • Lars actually did play it in studio. He practiced double-bass until his stamina was good enough to play that one track. Then he got lazy and let his calves get out of shape. This makes him an unrespectable drummer, in my opinion. Dave Lombardo still plays his double-bass as fast as on their old tracks, and he's like 50 years old.
  • Complete fraud. The track overdubbed a sped-up recording of Lars doing the double-bass groove.
  • Performance-enhancing drugs for that track. We know that Lars used to do a lot of cocaine.

You have your answer. Zero evidence means.....it didn't happen
Of your explanations:
#1 is being pretty hard on the guy
#2 happens all the time in studio work
#3 happens all the time inthe music industry

No doubt you are a serious fan to concern yourself with this.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

I had once heard he recorded it over a span of two weeks because he just wasn't happy with how the feet were coming out, so it essentially took him two weeks to get a take he was happy with.

Some Metallica songs with fast/long/both double kick:
Fight Fire With Fire
Fade to Black
Battery
Welcome Home (Sanitarium)
Damage Inc.
Blackened
One
Shortest Straw

Just because Lars doesn't do many full out runs under the verse riff of the song doesn't make him week in the feet.

8-10 years ago I could play Dyers Eve no problem. Don't know if I can last the whole song now. Haven't tried to play it since then.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Yep. Total fraud. Actually Lars doesn't play at all. Neil Armstrong sets up Lars' kit on a Hollywood sound stage......and voilà, the greatest conspiracy ever pulled. I'm pretty sure Lars did shoot Kennedy from a grassy knoll though. Lousy double bass......great shot.


Some Metallica songs with fast/long/both double kick:
Fight Fire With Fire
Fade to Black
Battery
Welcome Home (Sanitarium)
Damage Inc.
Ah. Good to see someone reflecting on a time when no-one questioned Lars' ability to play drums. In the 80's we thought he was great.......when all along it was Neil. How stupid of us.
 

poika

Silver Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

This is a forum. We're allowed to talk about trivial bullshit.
That's true, I've seen many stupider threads in the general discussion -section - what's with the hating?

Whether he did play those double kicks or not, he was a big influence on the 80's and THE drummer to a lot of young drummers coming up.

Master of puppets is still one of my fav metal records
 

Duck Tape

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

On the black album - of wolf and man there is some fast double kick for about a bar.. You hardly notice it unless you have headphones on. I doubt he really played it. On the cunning stunts video there were a few moments where you would watch out for a big fill and the lights would drop and you could hear some simplified version of it.

I'd say it's possible he cheated.. It happens.
 

zarrdoss

Gold Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Lars was a great drummer and I have no doubt he played it, I watched him live on that concert, He has just gotten incredibly lazy and does not practice his chops anymore. He could be great again but he has to practice. Personally I think he now is holding the band back and they should replace him with Dave Lombardo, just saying.
 

jonescrusher

Pioneer Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

OP's reminding me of the 'big fat phony' skit on Family Guy
 

eclipseownzu

Gold Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

The album was recorded before pro-tools, so I tend to doubt that the track was sped up, it's really tough to do on analog tape.

My guess is he played it once and looped it. Not the most agregious use of studio magic, not by a long shot. I have always thought that the parts in "One" were likely looped as well. If you have never been in the studio it tough to understand but the goal is that "one perfect take." Most singers will record the chorus of a song once then just cut and paste that one take throughout the song. Guitarists will record solos in peices then patch them together to make one long solo. I dont think taking one great drum take and looping it is any worse than those.
 

whiteknightx

Silver Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

yup, he was a huge influence on me as a teenager in the 80's, Ride the lightning is still one of my favorite albums. Battery and Blackened are great double bass songs. I don't really care for anything after And Justice for all. Perhaps it's just because they are so big. Much like Nickleback. Great Arena rock band, either you like them or not. I think they just got overplayed to death. At least they all play their own instruments and write their own music.

I don't understand the trendy Lars hate. Maybe he doesn't do the super fast double bass stuff anymore. Maybe his musical taste changed and he's trying to play to the song, instead of look at how fast I can go wank songs. I'm not as old as he is, and sometimes I wake up in the morning and my neck is stiff, and my joints hurt, and I just can't do the things I could when I was 25 anymore either.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

It's quite an anomaly considering that Lars never used double-bass for a groove in any other Metallica song (He of course used it for little bursts, like in One). Then there's the fact that, as far as I can tell, Metallica never played Dyers Eve as part of a live set back in their day. Youtube has bootleg and pro shot videos of almost every concert imaginable, and I can only find one example of Metallica playing Dyer's Eve in the 80's or 90's, as part of an audience-requested encore. In that video Lars skips the double-bass part like he does in their more recent concerts. I've seen zero evidence that Lars was ever able to play the studio version of that song.

Possible explanations:
  • Lars actually did play it in studio. He practiced double-bass until his stamina was good enough to play that one track. Then he got lazy and let his calves get out of shape. This makes him an unrespectable drummer, in my opinion. Dave Lombardo still plays his double-bass as fast as on their old tracks, and he's like 50 years old.
  • Complete fraud. The track overdubbed a sped-up recording of Lars doing the double-bass groove.
  • Performance-enhancing drugs for that track. We know that Lars used to do a lot of cocaine.
Another possible explanation is that you are bored with drumming and music in general, and you're moving on to focus your efforts on trolling and making up conspiracy stories out of nothing.
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

The album was recorded before pro-tools, so I tend to doubt that the track was sped up, it's really tough to do on analog tape.

My guess is he played it once and looped it. Not the most agregious use of studio magic, not by a long shot. I have always thought that the parts in "One" were likely looped as well. If you have never been in the studio it tough to understand but the goal is that "one perfect take." Most singers will record the chorus of a song once then just cut and paste that one take throughout the song. Guitarists will record solos in peices then patch them together to make one long solo. I dont think taking one great drum take and looping it is any worse than those.
This.

My singer is pretty big on making me play every song, from beginning to end - flawlessly - requiring "one perfect take". This is very frustrating, because we all know how difficult this is. If he played it, and then it was copy/pasted (not unheard of, even back then), he still played it, just not the way you hear it.
 

PQleyR

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Lars has definitely regressed technically in certain areas since the 80s. Mind you, if you listen to the drum stems from Guitar Hero games that people have uploaded, you can hear many of the same inexactitudes of execution that are audible on recent live recordings.

Dave Lombardo was asked about this at a clinic a few years ago, and I find his comments very interesting.

I also seem to recall that on the 'Classic Albums' video about the black album, Bob Rock says they punched in on every drum fill. I haven't got time to watch the whole thing but if anyone's interested in looking for it it's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJvP8McfiwQ
 
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CCdrummer

Senior Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

Well, those sextuplets on "One" was what me made go out and get a double pedal. (but please, don't Lars this, his ego doesn't need it; ) ) . They are just so precise and powerful.

I just don't get why a guy just wouldn't take the time to practice to do these parts and make everyone eat their words. Its not like he is putting in 8 or 10 hours on a job site, driving his kids to hockey, and then tiling his bathroom or unclogging a stuck drain, sleeping 6 hours and then repeating this routine the next day.
 

PQleyR

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

I was just saying to a friend of mine the other day, the drums in the intro for 'Harvester of Sorrow' from ...And Justice For All have always seemed very innovative and interesting to me. He's certainly come up with some good drum parts in his career, although perhaps not for a while...just a shame that he can't actually play them terribly well.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
Re: Was Lars' double-bass on the track Dyers Eve a fraud????

There is no conspiracy theory.

Lars has talked about this song many times in magazine interviews at the time.

He hides nothing about it.

He has admitted since the album came out it was recorded a section at a time, and then pieced together.

It is him playing, just not one take all the way through.

And he has said they rarely play it live because it was hard to pull off, and James found it tough to sing and play some of the guitar parts at the same time.

But I don't know why people harp on Lars for piecing together drum tracks though, as many, many great albums were in some way pieced together, contain punch ins, tape splices, or session musicians. And all this was before pro tools and quantization like we have now on nearly everything album.

Lars recording drum parts in stages is no worse than the Beach Boys hiring Hal Blaine to record Dennis Wilson's parts, or the Beatles using a tape loop on "Tomorrow Never Knows" or the millions of metal albums out there featuring double bass patterns that are all triggers and have been quantized.

I saw Metallica live on that Justice tour in 89. Lars was phenomenal. Sure, it's a shame he basically stopped practicing and can barely play his way out of a wet paper bag these days, but in the late 80's, he was on fire, and playing stuff no one else was at the time.

And yes, 1001 drummers learned every part of all those old Metallica albums and improved upon Lar's part, and took the whole epic double bass thing to new levels he never dreamed about. But that doesn't mean history did not happen. Drumming is not a chicken or egg theory where we are not sure what came first. History shows a direct linage to where we are now.
 
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