Update on Wac'd Drums

gwaco

Senior Member
As a follow up to my previous thread http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68178
i am now able to show you what has been brewing now that the patent work is done.
Let me say at this point if anyone has ideas and they seek to patent the idea , please use a patent lawyer to do it . Yeah it cost a pretty penny but after going over the 26 pages associated with it , it was worth the cost. Make sure the one you pick has a good and long understanding of the process. I was lucky enough to get one that still is the patent attorney for Rawling Sports and Evenflow (baby products),
I have also surrounded myself with three partners that share the same enthusiasm as me.
There is a 50/50 partner that has come forth and has made a big investment both monetary and business sense wise (which is something i surely am lacking) .
Also on board as minor partners are two drummers that have helped me develop this tuning system with alot of r&d work. They have been instrumental in keeping me on track with the development of this and some of the other things i have up my sleeve!
We are still in the process of getting all the partnership agreements and the business plan together. I had hoped to have it done already , but due to the holidays and there not being much sense in working on one months worth of taxes, it was collectively agreed upon to wait until the start of 2011. Also each one of us works a regular job so time is of a premium.
So enough blabbering, and so as not to break any board rules i won't be disclosing any prices or anything that may come off as commercial.
As you look at the pictures you'll see that i have come up with a lug system that i think works beautifully easy and flexible.
This all came about because as many of you know i have been building a few one off snares and a couple of kits for Jennifer. One of the things i really hated doing was drilling holes into the shells after putting on a beautiful wood veneer. I hated how the lugs and hardware blocked the full view of a beautiful shell finish. So after many months of sleepless nights, and many more coming up with the prototype i was able to not only accomplish the first objective but accomplish the following.
1. a "free floating" system akin to mymi and sleishman but with out all the related extra hardware involved to make their systems work ( and they both work great ) .
2. allow the user to dictate its usage. by that i mean there are many ways that the user can use these lugs , your not limited to what a manufactuer deems as whats is the correct number of lugs
To further explain , think what you could do with a single flange hoop ! you could have your drum tune with as little or as many lugs you want. Wonder what a 12" tom would sound like with 4 lugs or 10 lugs ? Or how about you have this great steambent snare that uses 10 lugs and wonder how different it would as an eight lug snare ! Now with a simple change of hoops you can experiment.
3. as a drum builder how much time and possible heart ache would you save by not having to drill the shells for lugs , let alone keeping that shell solid .

We have so many things planed with just this one simple design but it will just take time to get things out. So far i have 2 machine shop ready to make the parts but there is an 8 week lead in time for one of them. I refuse to have them made overseas while i have local guys that can use the business. I also like the idea of being less than 10 minutes from each of them so should anything arise or on the fly changes need to be made i can hop in the car and not on a plane.

Many of the pictures and the short video contain what was the original design that had the problem of the bottom tension rods backing out under extended heavy playing, that was corrected by eliminating the bottom rod all together.
The new design incorporates a spring on the bottom that keeps the lug from dropping down in the event that a rod does start to detune. The user will know not only by the change in tone ( which is another story all together and just totally goes against the normal school of thought!) but the rod head will elevate up. Since applying these to the drums in the video he has not even had a problem with detuning , and he hits hard !
Also you will notice that we will have floating plates for the snare strainer & butt . These will be seperate from the lugs.

Toward the end of 2011 i am hoping to start offering drum kits made by yours truely but need some input from you guys and gals as to what you would like to see on / off or otherwise from a kit.

If you have any questions please ask !

Gary
 

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gwaco

Senior Member

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GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
I was at Gary's house Tuesday night to check this out and took him my Vaughncraft steam bent snare to put lugs on so I could test the system. When I learn to measure things will be cool. I told him my snare was 6 inches deep and it's 7. So he had lugs made for a 6 not 7. Duh. I was able to play two different drums, snare and tom with the new lugs attached and was quite impressed and how effortless the drum tunes from high to low. I will get my drum back soon and will be able to bring it home and wail away on it. Gary is putting a lot of work into this and I know we all wish him nothing but success. okay. mail me my check now.lol
 

jer

Silver Member
Assuming that the part identified as (2) on the diagram is to prevent rotation of the shaft, is there anything in place to prevent it from making contact with the shell? I wonder about potential scuffs this may cause?
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
The pressure on the shell is minimal. I asked the same question the night I was at Gary's house. The lugs turn easily enough as you aren't pushing them into the shell. And they don't rest against the shell when not being turned. I'm Gary will have more to say.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Undrilled shells are the future of drum making, my opinion only.
I'm betting this is going to be a big success. I hope you make a ton of dough and create American jobs too. Big props for not going overseas, much respect.
 

gwaco

Senior Member
G.D thanks for covering my back ! I was out really late (for me anways) watching Artimus Pyle play on the kit from the video. Besides his band , he also had his son with him and they set up a second kit and he played along with dad. It was a very cool site to see!
But back to business , GD the checks in the mail ! haha . but the rods should be here by tuesday so i will contact you as soon as they arrive.
I'm real excited about using GD's shell as when we start with making kits i am leaning more toward using solid, steambent or stave shells and using keller (which we know are great shells also) should there be a demand for a lower costing kit.
To answer your question JER , Grunter is correct in that the actual pressure is minimal.
In both Jennifers snare (the natural leapard wood one in the pics) and the red sparkle kit (which is a finish not a wrap) there has not been any type of indents put into the wood, and we've done some real hard cranking on them to make sure they can take it.
I will say that is was a concern in the beginning and we even dipped the ends of the stop in plastic dip because i was worried about that same thing but after feeling how much actual torque is applied it no longer became a concern.
Also as G.D. pointed out once you get your tension set just rotate it back slightly if you don't want it resting on the shell, doing this will not change your tuning. the only time it will change is when the stop makes contact in either direction.
I would also like to state that the stops in the pictures are the same ones used on the bass drum. When i originally had the first stops made i had them made to be able to handle duty on all the drums as i did'nt want to pay additonal set up charges for something i wasn't sure would even work. But now that its been proven to work the snare and tom stop will be alittle smaller.
It was a total surprise to us that no matter how hard we tightened down on the lugs you could still easily rotate the stop back and forth with your finger.
I hope this answers your question but if not let me know!
I would also like to run this idea by you guys and it pertains to the bass drum.
I also had this great brain storm ,that to make our kits alittle different and also to keep with the minimal or no hole shells, i came up with the idea of using a bass drum plate (or cradle if you will ) and eliminate spurs altogether.
I know there are already some cradles out there but so far the ones i have looked at appear to be really heavy and made to fit every application under the sun . I'm thinking more on the lines of a specific plate for each size bass drum in a kit . I've pretty much drafted it out and these are some of the ideas.
1. light weight - aluminum
2. small but stable foot print
3. the contact points with the shell will be rubberized ( i want no transfer of sound )
4. an additional add on for double pedal users so they have a secure mount for the slave pedal.
5. make it so the front of the bass drum can be elevated
So instead of bringing your bass drum it to a gig ,tipping it on its end messing around with the spurs , you literaly put the plate on the ground , attach your pedal to it and just set your bass drum on top . no muss no fuss.
Would something like the sound appealing?

Oh. and while i thinking about it the lugs will come in either a brushed natural finish or one of the 15 colors of powder coat i have so far with more colors to come.
We also have a nice little nylon plug for those that would be retrofitting their kit . It won't vibrate out , can be dyed any color , and requires no additional work to install just push them in and your done.

BOB , me to! Looks like early spring right now but i am hoping sooner ! There is so much more to be done beyond the actual making of the part it just blows my mind some days.
It has been such a daunting task so far. I'm surprised i still have a wife!

Gary
 
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gwaco

Senior Member
Undrilled shells are the future of drum making, my opinion only.
I'm betting this is going to be a big success. I hope you make a ton of dough and create American jobs too. Big props for not going overseas, much respect.
Thanks so much Larry ! it means a great deal to me also. It has been a real pleasure working with the locals , just a bunch of hard working people that are excited to help!
If i don't make a ton of dough i hope its enough to get Jennifer to college !
 

jer

Silver Member
More than answered my question, thanks Gary!

I was also curious as to the amount of tension you are generating and in a way, surprised to find that even with the skins torqued down you can still easily adjust the stop...

There is still a part of me that feels as though the plastic dip or some rubber stoppers would help my concern for any rubbing. I'd probably be pretty anal about making sure they weren't touching the shell at any point, especially before a performance.

As for spurs? The first thing that popped into my head was something similar to your snare and butt plate assemblies, running from one tension rod to the next. Maybe just one on the bottom with legs extending out?



^^^ drawing of the year, my friends.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
First up, Gary, huge congratulations on bringing your superb idea to market. I know, only too well, the trials & costs of taking even the most simple of things from conception to reality. Huge kudos for that Gary, & for what it's worth, you have my full support in your venture.

2nd up, Grunt, you'll be sharing that royalty check, lol. Gary has let me in on this development last year. He was obviously wanting to tap into my huge depth of ignorance on the subject!

Now down to business. Gary, as you know, I've done a ton of experimenting myself. I'm going a different, personal route. You're starting a business on the back of a great idea. Two totally different approaches. Your product (because that's what it now is) is right on the money IMO. It's scaleable, & has superb mass market appeal & application. From an engineering standpoint, it couldn't be better. Ultra simple, & simple always wins out.

I like the kick drum station idea, but the sonic benefits would only really come to the fore with thin shells, & were the player wanted to extract maximum sustain/shell involvement. That limits the number of potential users to some degree, as many players muffle their kick drums to some degree, & place projection over shell involvement. It's a great idea, & one that would appeal to me on my thinner shelled kick, but don't find yourself with a great product that solves a problem that doesn't exist. The free floating principal on toms is a no brainer for me, & to a slightly lesser extent, snares, but the kick is a different story. I'd council proceed with caution & put maximum energy into the FF tom/snare program. From a business pov, think in terms of cashflow & resource aportion.

Gary, a quick technical question; are you using the standard tension screw thread pitch? If so, I can see a potential minor issue with the kick drum application if not picked up early. Kick drums tend to be tensioned less than toms. That means there will be less thread retention on a standard pitch. Make sure there's a good amount of thread depth in the lug, & the tension screw runs deep into the lug. This will help prevent detuning issues.

Overall, I think this is a stunning piece of work, & couldn't be happening to a nicer guy than you. You deserve every bit of success coming your way, & I hope the drumming community get behind your system. It's a winner!!!!!!

p.s. Don't think that Youtube clip does your great product any favours. The snare sounds good, but there doesn't seem to be any increase in sustain on the toms, above & beyond what you'd expect from a standard lug tom. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they sound a touch dull. Keep that clip untitled. Later on, a before & after style comparison would go down well. Recorded with high quality gear, take two identical shells (I'd suggest go thin, maybe a build standard such as Keller), with the same bearing edges, & record one with standard lugs, the other with your system. Let players hear the difference in a straight back to back comparison, & you'll win customers.

TTFN, Andy.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
I think all of these concepts sound great. Personally, I hope there is some time spent on the bass drum ideas. For someone like myself who will often move a bass drum to 4 or more different venues a week I can't tell you the number of problems I have. In fact it's probably equipment malfunction #1.

Good luck with your overall plan.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Why didn't you just put a clear surgical tube full of compressed CO2 under each hoop and control the tuning with a valve that you squeeze between your teeth?
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55769&highlight=tune+your+drums

I'm looking forward to seeing a fuller video demonstration.
I'm still not 100% sure how your tension system works.
I'm an Automotive Tech and I still am not sure of all of the little things from the drawings and pics that you posted.
 
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Red Menace

Platinum Member
Oooh, preeety. I love that acrylic snare. I'm gonna guess that's Jennifer's because of the color scheme o the hardware.

I love the concept, it's like a much cleaner Pearl free-floater. So could I theoretically get one set of hardware and change out the shell depending on whatever mood I'm in that week? I love the idea of having a 14x say 7 or 8 and being able to swap from an acrylic to brass to wood shell as the particular sound is needed.

Brilliant, and serious kudos for keeping the manufacturing in the country.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Question Gary....From what I can tell, the lugs aren't anchored to the shell in any way. I've often thought of an equivalent design, but in my mind, if you tighten the batter head, the reso head would be tensioned as well. So,

Are the lugs anchored?
Do both heads get tensioned together?

While your at it, you could design a hoop that would take any amount of your lugs, with a slot all the way around instead of individual holes.
 

gwaco

Senior Member
Why didn't you just put a clear surgical tube full of compressed CO2 under each hoop and control the tuning with a valve that you squeeze between your teeth?
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55769&highlight=tune+your+drums

I'm looking forward to seeing a fuller video demonstration.
I'm still not 100% sure how your tension system works.
I'm an Automotive Tech and I still am not sure of all of the little things from the drawings and pics that you posted.
Haha ! I remember that ! A strange idea it was. I wonder if he ever sold any? But with that said , one of the scarest things with this lug was actually posting it here and wondering if i would suffer the same fate ! When i came up with this it made perfect sense, but the reality of it is that if the people that would use it in their craft don't think so then its a mute point.
Thankfully the response has been great! Back a couple of months ago while Jennifer and i were at a drum clinic i was approached by someone that i had no idea who he was, but it turned out that he is the c.e.o. of a known drum company . He had seen the prototype kit (the red one ) and really thought it was a great idea. At some point in the up coming year we are supposed to sit down and have some discussions. So that only fueled fire more !
Bob, If you have ever seen Sleishman drums they operate with the same principal. The biggest differance is that with my lugs you don't need to have all of the extra weight since i have eliminated the need for any type of retaining ring , and the need for bottom tension rods. When you tighten down on the top head you are also tightening the bottom head at the same time. In theory you then have equally tuned heads.
Notice i said in theory because most people end up using different thickness on the resonance versuses the batter side, this is especially true when it comes to the snare. But believe it or not , it still works regardless of differance. Having matching heads would be the perfect senario but we found that its still becomes a totally different drum when compared to the standard lug system.
I hope that helps Bob but if not let me know !
Something else i feel i should bring up that may or maynot matter is that these are being made out of t-6061 aluminum which makes them very strong but yet light. For fun i weighed a standard Ludwig bowtie snare lug and it came in at 2.15 oz while my lug (with spring, washers and clips) weighs a mere .60 oz .
If you are worried about the threads stripping out because they are aluminum don't worry !
We haven't stripped out any and we pretty much have abused the things! Also since they are not attached to the shell they basically self align.
 
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bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Thank you, Thats how I thought that it worked.
The wings keep the tube from spinning and both heads tension from the top lug.
What are the shepherds crooks for on the bottom tension rods?
 

gwaco

Senior Member
Guys before i go any further let me just say that i am deeply humbled by all your support and i mean that from the bottom of my heart ! You people are the greatest !

Andy - You have to know i have the greatest of respect for you and your input is wholly apprecited. You are dead on with the video ! I'll admit that it was a rush job, more like spur of the moment ! Whats worse is that we had an identical tom (different wrap though) racked up next to it and i didn't even exploit the fact! Hell you can even see it in the video!
That being said, there is no doubt that we need to have a more supportive video done before i sell the very first one. Luckily Jennifers teacher also has a small video production company , so i expect to have something top notch !
Also yes they will be standard 12/24 pitch threads as i do not want the user to have to buy new tension rods to be able to use the lugs. I have already addressed the depth with the machine shop and they are going to extend the depth to 1 1/2" from the current 1" .
I am really looking forward to your concept and kit as i have looked at the Guru webpage and they look like FANTASTIC drums ! I actually came up with another idea simply looking at the site !

Jer - I love you ! you just created another brainstorming session ! I now have another prototype to come up with , alittle different than your pic , but it ignited the idea !
Maybe i'll call it the JER-e-RIG !

Matt- Thank you for your support and theres no doubt i will keep working on the " Bass Station " .

Red Menace- Thank you also ! Believe it or not that acrylic drum in the picture is a tom that is a whole different project i have going on ! Don't even get me started on that !

Larry - I'm a little ahead of you on this, but let me throw it out there for you guys. Since i have not been able to find any U.S. manufactuers of hoops , I have been pondering over having my own hoops made for my kits but should there be a demand then it would only make sense to sell them outright.
This will be exactly what you want Larry , a single flange hoop with a shoulder to hide the edge of the drumhead. I guess the best way to explain it is to think of a diecast hoop with out the gussets for the rods. Does that make sense ? I had this idea shortly after i came up with the lugs. I don't know how do able it is but i'm sure gonna find out !
And yes you are correct in that both heads are tightend at the same time as the lugs are not secured to the shell.

Heck by now you guys have a pretty good idea as to what the Wac'd kits are goona look like !

Again thanks for all your support !
Gary
 
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gwaco

Senior Member
Thank you, Thats how I thought that it worked.
The wings keep the tube from spinning and both heads tension from the top lug.
What are the shepherds crooks for on the bottom tension rods?
Those are there for two reasons.
1. They make for quick assembly/disassembly
2. They are the anchor point that keeps the rod from pulling thru as you tighten the top tension rod.

So really there is no bottom tension rod. The main shaft is turned to a smaller diameter at the bottom. The final measurement on it is 5mm which fits all the washers (plastic or metal ).

They say a pic is worth a thousand words ! Ironically this pic is what the patent attorney had redrawn by his artist as it needed to be line drawn !
 

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