Posture

Bobrush

Senior Member
... "XYZ star drummer had piss-poor posture" is total bunk. So what? Poor posture is a barrier to peak physical performance. Period. That those guys can/could play like that with poor posture is irrelevant.
I agree. I see that line of thinking in many areas of life, "XYZ did it the hard/wrong/bad/dangerous/sloppy/inefficient way and he was the GREATEST!". My response, which is usually ignored or not understood is simply, "And how much better would he have been if he had done it the easy/right/good/safe/graceful/efficient way?"
 

GeoB

Gold Member
Sigh


GeoB I am not sure where you got your opinions on Pilates not being for the male skeleton...is it because women predominately do these classes ? Or is there some evidence based information to back that up. If its women mostly do pilates then Thai Chi is out because Larry is not Hahn Chinese.
I recall reading that in some AAFA literature and the point was that structurally men might be prone to lower back pain after a Pilates session. If there is discomfort it is probably a good idea to avoid certain techniques. Why men and not women? Hip structure. Do male and female hips differ? Yes they do. Perhaps pads or pillows or whatever can change the angles a bit and reduce the stress.

I was working through Yoga routines and again... there are many postures that put a lot of undue stress on joints, ligs, and tendons.

So... my approach has developed more along the lines of Phys Therapy avoiding over articulation in the joint areas or over leveraging structure. We put together a routine from various sources and it works; for me.

In saying that... and this is my point... everyone is different structurally and to think that one-size-fits-all is not a proper mind set.
 
Last edited:

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Aeolian, thanks for your post. My last gig I did try and correct my posture. I think I did it pretty good for most of the night. I think I can get on board with this. After I do it for a while it will become more automatic. It just looks better. Looks count.

It's not that my core is super weak or anything. It's more about pushing my lower back forward, and not allowing it to slump.. It's all about eliminating the negative factors. I don't want to look slumped, it's bad enough I'm the only one sitting. The least I can do is to try and sit properly so I don't look like a slob.
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
Posture is very important Larry. After I started having Alexander Technique lessons my posture improved dramatically thus my playing. I would urge you to find an Alexander Technique teacher and have some lessons. Mine was specialized in musicians so she corrected my posture directly on the drum kit
I'm still looking for one in my area, following your advice :/ However, I live in a bit of a black hole so I may have to widen my search.
 

Grolubao

Senior Member
Posture is very important Larry. After I started having Alexander Technique lessons my posture improved dramatically thus my playing. I would urge you to find an Alexander Technique teacher and have some lessons. Mine was specialized in musicians so she corrected my posture directly on the drum kit
 

Aeolian

Platinum Member
Larry, I've with you. I used to play with a drummer who had amazing posture (I've posted vids of him before) and when I sat on his set up (we used to have my kit at the rehearsal place) everything seemed really high to me even though I probably had 6" of height over him.

Recently I've figured it out. It's exactly what you are saying. A slumped and arched back. When I started drumming a fair amount of gigs, I noticed two things. One, I has hitting my thigh with the butt of the stick doing rimshots on the snare, and my back would feel it at the end of the night. I went and got a throne with a back rest. Helped a bit but not the answer. Also, sitting on on other good drummers kits with the snare up higher felt really awkward.

I went back and looked at some videos of my old drummer and how upright he sat. Taking a back clinic and working at it a bit, I discovered what Madge was talking about. Rotating your pelvis forward. Yep, that's what that guy was doing and why he looked so tall and proud at the kit.

Here's a way you can see it for yourself. Sit normally at the kit with your forearms parallel to the floor. You probably have your snare set up at a height that works for that. Now raise the snare an inch. You probably have to lift your shoulders up to play it, not something that will work either. Now rotate your pelvis forward so that instead of your tailbone, your weight is resting on the forward part of your pelvis and/or your thighs (if you have a bicycle type seat). Watch what happens to the height of your forearms as you rotate forward. They'll raise 1-2 inches and the snare will seem right again. If you have a backrest, you won't be touching it.

This is what I've done. Raise the snare and make sure I couldn't feel the backrest behind me. After a few months, I've gotten rid of the backrest (less junk to pack) entirely.

The reminded me of changing the seating position on my motorcycle. I've had a couple of BMW airheads. My old one was a standard. After a couple long trips I put the shorter S type bars on it and found that I could go longer more comfortably. Now I have an RS and I can still ride all day. If you arc forward to reach the shorter bars (and I'm not talking sportbike clip on's, but Beemer sport touring style) then your back will know it, and your hands from leaning on them. But if your rock forward so that you're carrying the load on your inner thighs instead of your tailbone, then you can last longer than either racer types or cruisers. Both by taking the weight off of either your hands or tailbone, and because your back is in a more neutral position. Remembering that posture and applying it to the drum kit has saved my back.
 

STXBob

Gold Member
PIlates was invented by a man (Joe) to help broken soldiers returning from the Great War to recover. That it's modernly practiced primarily by women of the leisured classes does not mean it's of no use to men. It's something for humans.

Same with yoga. Nobody knows how yoga began - it was an awful long time ago - but one of the most widely-accepted is that it was developed as an exercise regime to make soldiers more physically fit and mentally focused.

You don't need to do all of the contortionist poses for yoga to be of immense benefit to the practitioner. In fact, one of the best things you can do is ditch the office chair and sit on a yoga ball. Just that one small step will do wonders for your spine alignment, as well as firm up your core.

One of the tremendous benefits of Pilates and yoga to percussionists is that they force you to pay attention to your body. If you're going to do either practice correctly and safely, your instructor must carefully guide you through the maneuvers, poses, and exercises. Yoga and Pilates are good for the core, good for the mind, and good for body awareness. I encourage trying one, the other, or both, with the following caveat: Avoid yoga classes with an emphasis on exercise. Yoga emphasizes mind as well as body. "Feeling the burn" should be something that surprises you after you finish your session. It may feel all whifty-farkle, concentrating on chakras and stuff, but it's an essential part of the practice, and without it the practice doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Oh, and the argument that "XYZ star drummer had piss-poor posture" is total bunk. So what? Poor posture is a barrier to peak physical performance. Period. That those guys can/could play like that with poor posture is irrelevant.

I look at it like this: I am exceedingly unlikely to approach Buddy Rich's level of skill. I am lucky to possess a fraction of his talent. Therefore, the least favor I can do for myself is give my body the best possible opportunity to do what my mind desires. Poor posture and lack of core fitness does nothing but get in the way of that opportunity. It's stupid to make excuses. Just suck in your gut and sit up straight! :-D
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
Seems like everything is being over-complicated. Can't I just gently thrust my lower back forward when I play and re-balance around that? I mean it's just sitting up straight, right?

Shoulders back, chest out. You may have to reposition your stool and or distance of beater to BD head along with drum positioning.

If your throne top allows movement (soft) this will make things more difficult.

Dennis Chambers is conscious of his posture, they're are other top level pros who are, and some who aren't.


Most traditional grip players have a default list to that side and poor posture.


..................................................................
 

Attachments

Last edited:

JimFiore

Silver Member
There's no excuse. A government that takes huge portions of my paychecks should have a responsibility to help me back when I get sick. I don't see how anything else makes sense. Becoming ill shouldn't have to ruin people financially.
See, there you go again. If they take huge portions of (your) paychecks that means you're not rich. If you were rich, they'd take a smaller proportion. Ergo, you are a lazy "taker" and don't count. Besides, if they used that money to help the average citizen with health care they wouldn't have enough money to buy stealth bombers or nuclear missile subs or deploy nuclear aircraft carrier fleets. Why? Just so that you don't go bankrupt because your kid gets cancer? Get your priorities straight son, after all, defense contractors' gotta make a profit this quarter.

I mean, if we had national healthcare, for a small co-pay Uncle Larry could see a specialist if his back started to act up rather than rely on the opinions of a bunch of smart-ass drummers, very few of whom are actually qualified to comment on such a condition, and that assumes they could actually see him. But then there'd be no subsidies to make corn syrup so cheap or special breaks for the oil and natural gas companies. You guys can be sooo selfish...
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Are you following the logic now? /sarcasm.
I think if the two of us talked for long enough, there would be enough sarcasm to choke a hipster.

Maybe if I were really rich, I'd have less issue following the logic. That seems to be how it works round' here. If the last step in all logic paths is "buy my way out of trouble" I think life would be pretty grand.

I'm in favor of using the same systems at the homeless food kitchens. We really should only have a system that works for the homeless people that have money. I know it sounds like a really stupid idea on paper, but apparently all we need to do is have a president that's really stubborn and who will push through really stupid "compromises" with little thought. (CHECK!)

You guys want to borrow our NHS?
I really do. There's no excuse. A government that takes huge portions of my paychecks should have a responsibility to help me back when I get sick. I don't see how anything else makes sense. Becoming ill shouldn't have to ruin people financially.

I don't think any system world-wide is totally perfect, but I think ours is probably the most-broken by far. The people making the rules, as usual, are so disconnected from average reality with a lot of the people affected...
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Seems like everything is being over-complicated. Can't I just gently thrust my lower back forward when I play and re-balance around that? I mean it's just sitting up straight, right?
 

JimFiore

Silver Member
You guys want to borrow our NHS?
If only the USA was smart enough to look around the world, examine each country's version of national health care and pick the best parts of each that would work for us. But no.

I'm one of those guys who was screaming for single-payer government health care years ago (basically Medicare for everyone). While I agree that ACA ("Obamacare") is better than what we had, I'm having a hard time getting excited about a warmed-over 20 year old plan from the Heritage Foundation whose primary goal was to make sure the insurance industry didn't suffer a reduction in profit.

Excuse my incompetency and inaccuracy. The system is only broken for those who are at a disadvantage to start with.......
Right. But the very rich are not at a disadvantage. Therefore the system works just fine. For them. That's really all that matters. The poor are not rich because they're lazy. Therefore they don't matter. And the rich matter because they're rich, and they're rich because they're the bestest and harderest working people out there.

Are you following the logic now? /sarcasm.
 
Last edited:

Diet Kirk

Silver Member
Well, that's not entirely true. It works quite well if you have a good health plan or are very rich. Unfortunately, the former are getting more and more scarce. I always shake my head when I see/read the local news (in pretty much any city) with an announcement of a fundraiser for so-and-so who needs money for their kid's surgery or their cancer treatment or whatever. It's great that so many people are willing to pitch in to help someone else but I can't help but think that a truly civilized society would have structures in place to prevent this sort of need from happening in the first place.
Oh, well. Excuse my incompetency and inaccuracy. The system is only broken for those who are at a disadvantage to start with.......

On a related note, outside of government, or public service health packages,(and of course med field personnel) I haven't seen any of these "good health plans" you reference since a bit before obamacare started to loom. They cost more and cover less; it's almost like they're assuming we're all in the aforementioned "very rich" category and we can supplement our care at will.
You guys want to borrow our NHS?
 

wombat

Senior Member
Sigh

I feel like a parrot in a cage having to repeat myself

Larry is aware his posture could be better. After 30 years experience in the rehab industry I am saying he needs to -

- Strengthen his core body muscles, via exercises provided by a physio or something lik the core strength excersises described in evidence based literature like the Princeton link I provided.

- Relearn movement patterns and postural habits so you he is able to be aware of when he is returning to poor posture. Also in the absence of a physio or OT looking at the drum setup the methodologies I did mention may help him identify new ways of setting up his kit, and how he "moves" around set kit.

Heres some summaries below of the modalities I suggested, all are movment based involce stretching activities but also self awareness of movement and posture. It is true that Tai Chi is similar....but its not superior because of its particular movement exercises.

Pilates is a conditioning routine It puts emphasis on spinal and pelvic alignment, breathing, and developing a strong core or center, and improving coordination and balance.

The purpose of the Alexander technique is to help people unlearn maladaptive physical habits and return to a balanced state of rest and poise in which the body is well-aligned.

Feldenkrais is a method that can help your body learn to move more easily.
If your body has been in the habit of moving in an inefficient way a couple of things can happen-
Pain: you might be feeling stiffness or pain because of years of moving inefficiently, and be searching for ways to relieve the stiffness or understand the pain.

Efficiency: your body might not work as efficiently as it could – if you are a musician or sportsperson, this could be stopping you from reaching a higher level of performance.

To properly understand the realtionship and importance of a multi faceted approach I suggest people re-read my original post in this thread.

GeoB I am not sure where you got your opinions on Pilates not being for the male skeleton...is it because women predominately do these classes ? Or is there some evidence based information to back that up. If its women mostly do pilates then Thai Chi is out because Larry is not Hahn Chinese.

As for Thai Chi stressing movement....err they all do...and Tai Chi involves mostly standing based movement...... I have personally never seen a park of participants sitting on drum stools. I have however seen Alexander Technigue participants being instucted on seating posture and efficacy of movment in a seating position.

As I said non professional / evidence based recomendations are of potental minimal help and at worst potentially harmful....
 
Last edited:

GeoB

Gold Member
ABSOLUTELY NOT !! This is the problem with non professional advice... these exercises wont touch your Transversus Abdominus etc

If you cant afford a physio at least get relevent information on core strength excercises.

Here is one such link to Princeton Uni http://www.princeton.edu/uhs/pdfs/Lumbar.pdf

Another way developing postural awareness is join a pilates, feldenkreis, alexander tecnigue or yoga class.

Please DONT do folksy excercises, or this helped my granny stuff. Sorry Wally but Ive seen so much damage done by non professional advice. At best it wont fix the problem, at worst it can do just that...make things worse.....
I'm not sure if Pilates is ideally suited for male skeletal structure and Alexander Technique is very difficult to obtain information on. Yoga is okay but there is a degree of contortion involved and many will have to make necessary adjustments. Tai Chi might be one of the better options as rather than poses the stress in on movement, which is at the core of kit based drumming.
 

wombat

Senior Member
Just do squats and deadlifts.
ABSOLUTELY NOT !! This is the problem with non professional advice... these exercises wont touch your Transversus Abdominus etc

If you cant afford a physio at least get relevent information on core strength excercises.

Here is one such link to Princeton Uni http://www.princeton.edu/uhs/pdfs/Lumbar.pdf

Another way developing postural awareness is join a pilates, feldenkreis, alexander tecnigue or yoga class.

Please DONT do folksy excercises, or this helped my granny stuff. Sorry Wally but Ive seen so much damage done by non professional advice. At best it wont fix the problem, at worst it can do just that...make things worse.....
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Well, that's not entirely true. It works quite well if you have a good health plan or are very rich.
Oh, well. Excuse my incompetency and inaccuracy. The system is only broken for those who are at a disadvantage to start with.......

On a related note, outside of government, or public service health packages,(and of course med field personnel) I haven't seen any of these "good health plans" you reference since a bit before obamacare started to loom. They cost more and cover less; it's almost like they're assuming we're all in the aforementioned "very rich" category and we can supplement our care at will.
 

GeoB

Gold Member
Think of your body as a parabolic dish and the energy emanates from it.
My new Mantra has arrived... thanks BR!

But seriously, I do try and when standing for long periods of time I think about the Yoga stance etc... breathing is important! And over time the effects of not paying a small bit of attention to these simple things will start affecting your musculature, ligaments, tendons etc... next thing... headaches, nagging this, torn that.

Time = Oxidation. We are all Oxidizing as time goes by... that and this living under a very large thermo-nuclear reactor called El-Sol will take its toll.
 
Top