Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Magenta

Platinum Member
Since I joined DW, we've had a fair few discussions on the subject of sexism in drumming.

Sexism simply doesn't exist in my real life. I'm a director of the company I co-own with Mr Madge. Many of our clients are women in very senior positions in large organisations. They are, quite rightly, treated with consideration and respect by the people who work for them.

In the past 6 months, possibly contemporaneously with my feeling that I have "come of age" as a drummer, I've encountered way way WAY more sexism than I ever have before. It appalls me. How can it even happen?? What century do these people live in, and how can they possibly, POSSIBLY think that it is ok? And the worst thing is that I am undoubtedly the thin end of the wedge: I shudder to think what real, successful women drummers have had to endure.

I've always been taken seriously on DW, from my firstish stuttering single-strokes to jamming songs I've never heard, with people I don't know. Therefore I am asking all DW'ers - yes, YOU, whether you're one of my good friends or not - to think about what is appropriate for people to say to you, your Significant Other, your daughter or your mother, and if it isn't right, to challenge it, and change it.

Thanks :)
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Are you talking about encountering sexism here on the forum from members? Or sexism in general when you tell people you play the drums?
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
Are you talking about encountering sexism here on the forum from members? Or sexism in general when you tell people you play the drums?
No, not here, not at all - as if I wouldn't shout about it to the mods!

A lot more to do with people ignoring me when I want to buy something, and behaving in a way that I'm sure they wouldn't if I weren't a drummer.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
What Bo said. Please explain. Where and when are you being discriminated against? then we can have a proper informed discussion.
 

Derek

Silver Member
Magenta,

I don't have anything profound to say here, I'm no wordsmith, but whatever events you've encountered to inspire you to post this is, to put it very mildly, regrettable.

As a man, I cannot imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes or even condescend to pretend that I do. It's outrageous how humans are willing to mistreat one another.

We must all strive for a world where we are evaluated by the content of our character, or where applying our trade by our skill set. I can't add better than your closing statement; if it's not an acceptable way for your wife, daughter, mother or sister to be spoken to or treated, don't passively allow it.

Hoping for better times, Magenta.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
Yeah, it's a real thing, and it's everywhere.
Certainly in many workplaces, and in my workplace, even though I work in a so called environment of 'higher-education'.
Unfortunately, its generational, and in some ways (like racism) will take some generations of enlightenment and weeding out of ignorance to instil permanent progressive change.
You are fortunate to not have it in what you call your 'real life', for many women do....at least what I'm exposed to.
 

BillRayDrums

Gold Member
I think it has something to do with the fact that for so long drumming was about 99.99% male oriented. When I was raised in the 70's and 80's there was about ONE female drummer and her name was Karen Carpenter! Other than that, seeing a female drummer was a complete rarity.

So as a result, drumming became prominently male oriented. In the past ten years though it's become more balanced, and that's a great thing! There's just so many amazing female drummers amongst us.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
Agreed that sexism is still prevalent in most musician circles, based both on the genre, and especially the instrument played.

Is there anything unusual about a female keyboardist? No.

Female Guitarist? Not so much.

Female drummer? Yep, that raises a lot of eyebrows!

Even in an orchestra, where the M-F ratio is more balanced, you'll see more female string players than horn players, as if strings are somehow more feminine than a trumpet. But, still almost no gals in the percussion section.

As for the genre, how many gals are playing in rock or metal bands? Unless it's specifically an all-female band, there are only a couple of mixed groups.

Beyond acknowledging that the problem exists, I don't have an answer. Males in the business just need to get over it and judge everyone on how well they actually play.

And how well their jeans fit. :)

Bermuda
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Another interesting discussion on this would be that, certainly some women know there is sexism, yet they don't complain about it and get along within systems that have it. How do those women deal with that?

I've talked about this with my womanly avatar and she knows it exists, yet she seems to make use of it to her advantage, and she sorta thrives within it. Do other women who are offended by sexism look at her as some kind of a sell-out? I haven't figured that one out yet, and I'm not sure the woman cares, frankly. It's like reverse-insidiousness, isn't it?

But I get it, sexism is everywhere. Heck, you only have to see how many times "girl drummer" videos are viewed on YouTube compared to "boy drummer" videos. What about that kind of sexism? Unless you're of the Vinnie Colaiuta talent-level, your videos are not watched as much as the girl double-bass drummer wearing high heels. Why is that?
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
As a man, I cannot imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes or even condescend to pretend that I do.
Oh, it's ok, it's no more your fault than mine! But I do thank you.

You are fortunate to not have it in what you call your 'real life', for many women do....at least what I'm exposed to.
Shit, really? Not that I don't believe you, but still ... shit.

I think it has something to do with the fact that for so long drumming was about 99.99% male oriented.
What I'm reluctantly on the receiving end of, is absolutely this. Nobody in my real life, who values their kneecaps, would offer their opinion about my appearance/my ability to do my job/ whatever. The minute I'm a drummer, I'm fair game.
 

Derek

Silver Member
Another interesting discussion on this would be that, certainly some women know there is sexism, yet they don't complain about it and get along within systems that have it. How do those women deal with that?

I've talked about this with my womanly avatar and she knows it exists, yet she seems to make use of it to her advantage, and she sorta thrives within it. Do other women who are offended by sexism look at her as some kind of a sell-out? I haven't figured that one out yet, and I'm not sure the woman cares, frankly. It's like reverse-insidiousness, isn't it?

But I get it, sexism is everywhere. Heck, you only have to see how many times "girl drummer" videos are viewed on YouTube compared to "boy drummer" videos. What about that kind of sexism? Unless you're of the Vinnie Colaiuta talent-level, your videos are not watched as much as the girl double-bass drummer wearing high heels. Why is that?





And some of those "girl drummer" videos are titled "The best 5 (or whatever number) girl drummers in the world" and you won't see Kimberly Thompson, Cindy Blackman -Santana nor Terri Lynn Carrington , just to name a few, among them. Strictly "Youtube stars". As if they've discovered some sort of an anomaly.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
Not being sexist myself I have no idea why anyone is a bigot. As far as I am concerned If someone is good enough, for anything, they are by default old enough, man/woman enough, big enough, etc for the job.

Why any band, to keep it to music, would turn down the best player because of sex, race or any other reason is simply beyond me. Why chose to settle for second best? Just foolish, and there loss.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I have three daughters so, of course, I want women to rule the world. Sadly for my selfish reasons of vesting my immortality in my offspring, but is that wrong? My wife also supports me, made more than I ever have, and is way smarter than I. I know my place on the totem pole of life. LOL. Actually my oldest daughter makes more than I ever did too. Dang. But there is discrimination as my wife use to work for a Medical school and she made less than males of the same position and title.
 

KamaK

Platinum Member
Sexism, racism, ageism, and all the other ism's will continue to exist as long as there are assholes among and within us. Basically... forever. All we can do is teach our children well and lead by example.

I had the strange fortune of being raised by parents that were a bit unconventional philosophically, and it has put me at odds with the typical affirmative-action crowd. Rather than being taught that we're all human beings and equals, I was taught that women were men, blacks were white, etc. Their point was that we (as humans) struggle with the concept of equality. We're stupid and try to quantify things that need not be considered. We can achieve the same goals and sidestep the problematic bits if we trick our intellect into skipping the quantification and evaluations.

Women are Men. Any argument to the contrary just doesn't work with me.

I get a lot of shit for my beliefs, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's a bad way to live.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
This can sort of work both ways.

On sexism is musician circles, I find that in a semi-professional environment of musicians all types of discrimination can flourish a lot more than other environments. It's an insecurity thing, it's a business thing and results of individuals from both sexes having a history of less than fortunate experiences.

It's true that there might be male musicians who have unfounded negative attitudes towards female musicians. It is also true however, that many female musicians get more attention than is reflected in their musicianship. Not anything new in the entertainment indsutry really, though. That goes for both sexes. It's the entertainment industry. It's the nature of the beast.
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
A lot more to do with people ignoring me when I want to buy something, and behaving in a way that I'm sure they wouldn't if I weren't a drummer.
Its not you, or what you represent (the divine feminine), its the person.

Feeling offended by perceived sexism, racism, handicap etc. is just feeding the vibration. If you offend someone by being a woman drummer, don't let their vibration influence you, its (usually) them not you who doesn't understand.

There is no sexism, racism etc. these are just blockage names for a misunderstanding, and herein would be a situation you'd truly want to (try and) change people, on the upside of 'you can't change anyone'.
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
Its not you, or what you represent (the divine feminine), its the person.

Feeling offended by perceived sexism, racism, handicap etc. is just feeding the vibration. If you offend someone by being a woman drummer, don't let their vibration influence you, its (usually) them not you who doesn't understand.
Chicken, I don't give a cat's arse who I offend, given that I don't set out to offend anybody.

But if somebody you'd never even heard of made suggestive remarks to you, based SOLELY on your gender and the fact that you are a drummer, how would you feel?
 
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