please help me with some variations

zakhopper316

Silver Member
I can't tell what rhythm you're trying to communicate, but it seems like you're over-complicating it. Basically, if you play 16ths in jazz, play them legato but forget about swinging and forget about how they're going to lay against the swing 8ths.



The short answer everyone operates under is "that's just how it's done. You don't swing 16ths." To analyze the logic of it a little bit:

Usually 16th notes in jazz are used briefly as an embellishment, or to go into double time; extended running 16ths functionally become 8th notes at double the tempo. At medium to fast tempos, going to double time puts you into the territory where you wouldn't swing the 8th notes. EG: 16th notes @ 150 = 8th notes @ 300, and at 300 you don't swing 8th notes. I guess technically when you play (or suggest) a double time swing feel over a slow tempo you would be swinging the 16th notes. EG: 16th notes @ 90 = 8th notes @ 180, and at 180 you do swing 8th notes. But no one thinks of it that way, that I know of- you think of it as playing two measures of fast 4/4 for every slow measure.

Anyway, that's one way of explaining it. I'm not a theorist- I'm sure a serious jazz ed guy would have a better or more complete answer for you.

Oh, and do get the Erskine book.
haha you cleared the hole thing of for me in 2 words,
double time!!!!!
god i feel like an idiot now, i dont know how i did not think of it in that way. i kept trying to match up straight 16ths with my hands and swing 8ths on the bass drum, i could do it but it did not sound jazzy, or even nice to listen to at all, double time it lands, setting the metronome to twice as fast and doing it that way helped me find
the jazz sixteenth note feel i was looking for, sound much better then playing straight as hell 16th over swing 8th nothing matched up except for the down beat, now it works, thanks!
 
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toddbishop

Platinum Member
ok so lets say i play 1 - trip -ah -let -ah (2 triplets and then 4 six's in the first beat) then 2 - eh -ah -let -ah ( 2 16th notes and 3 six's) then 3 - and - 4 - and (8th notes)

would this be a common way to do a jazz set up with 16th notes in it?
I can't tell what rhythm you're trying to communicate, but it seems like you're over-complicating it. Basically, if you play 16ths in jazz, play them legato but forget about swinging and forget about how they're going to lay against the swing 8ths.

and does any one else here no why you dont swing 16th notes?
The short answer everyone operates under is "that's just how it's done. You don't swing 16ths." To analyze the logic of it a little bit:

Usually 16th notes in jazz are used briefly as an embellishment, or to go into double time; extended running 16ths functionally become 8th notes at double the tempo. At medium to fast tempos, going to double time puts you into the territory where you wouldn't swing the 8th notes. EG: 16th notes @ 150 = 8th notes @ 300, and at 300 you don't swing 8th notes. I guess technically when you play (or suggest) a double time swing feel over a slow tempo you would be swinging the 16th notes. EG: 16th notes @ 90 = 8th notes @ 180, and at 180 you do swing 8th notes. But no one thinks of it that way, that I know of- you think of it as playing two measures of fast 4/4 for every slow measure.

Anyway, that's one way of explaining it. I'm not a theorist- I'm sure a serious jazz ed guy would have a better or more complete answer for you.

Oh, and do get the Erskine book.
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
hi zach, i think you should check out "essential drum fills" by peter erskine.

it covers a lot of what you're talking about with fills leading to a "destination point" in the next bar.

theres some info on amazon about it, or you can google it for a preview. anyway i think it might help with getting more flow and variety with your fills.
is this book easily applied to jazz fills? fills that would be reasonable in a jazz tune? triplets and 6lets and stuff?
 

Dedworx

Senior Member
so yea u might no ive been studying jazz for a while, anyway i had my Daily lesson today,
( 5 days a week to be exact) and my teacher is really trying to get me to expand my arsenal
of on the fly jazz fills to set up long sounding horn hits (big band style, bass and crash on the hit)
and i feel like i have hit a dead end with triplet and sixlet variations, can you use
16th note fills for this? well i know you can, but i dont know how to feel them out, or how to
mix them in with 3's or 6's, or some normal 3 and 6 variations i may be missing. my teacher
say is very import that i feel them out on my own with his guidance (what ever that means)
all i know is he wont just write them out for me because i asked him and he said that,

so please any help, i hope to make a career out of the new wave of jazz going on in the
u.s , which is much more then just swing, so i know this stuff is crucial for me to greatest
extent ?

thanks,
zachary hopper
hi zach, i think you should check out "essential drum fills" by peter erskine.

it covers a lot of what you're talking about with fills leading to a "destination point" in the next bar.

theres some info on amazon about it, or you can google it for a preview. anyway i think it might help with getting more flow and variety with your fills.
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
Strange. So by asking us would he consider that cheating? I'd recomend setting a metronome to 30 bpm and begin by counting subdivisions within each quarter note pulse. If you subdivide that to 16th notes on the metronome you can than count 32nds within that slow tempo. Find out through counting where things land. Use one note within that count and try to land it each time. Then play a swing pattern on the ride and try to nail that same note on the snare. Add one note at a time until you begin to understand where each note falls.

This should help while remaining in the discover for yourself category.

Good luck!
ok so lets say i play 1 - trip -ah -let -ah (2 triplets and then 4 six's in the first beat) then 2 - eh -ah -let -ah ( 2 16th notes and 3 six's) then 3 - and - 4 - and (8th notes)

would this be a common way to do a jazz set up with 16th notes in it?
and does any one else here no why you dont swing 16th notes? i would swing the 8th notes and i think i can swing 16th notes, im not sure its what im doing tho
 
W

wy yung

Guest
he wont write it out for me or show me! my teacher has a wierd way of teaching me, he has
me figure things out on my own, with his input and advanced examples of the simple things
im learning, he is a bit of a wierd teacher, his style is very different to, but he knows what
he is doing, hes been playing on broadway for 30 years, and i have advanced by leaps and
bounds,

and he picks really great books to teach out of.
Strange. So by asking us would he consider that cheating? I'd recomend setting a metronome to 30 bpm and begin by counting subdivisions within each quarter note pulse. If you subdivide that to 16th notes on the metronome you can than count 32nds within that slow tempo. Find out through counting where things land. Use one note within that count and try to land it each time. Then play a swing pattern on the ride and try to nail that same note on the snare. Add one note at a time until you begin to understand where each note falls.

This should help while remaining in the discover for yourself category.

Good luck!
 

Monica McCoy

Senior Member
There's an infinite number of subdivisions between each note. Whether is 4 per beat or 3 or 6. Doesn't matter. You can play whatever you want as long as you know where the beats are. Use a metronome and count it out.
 

PreppieNerd

Silver Member
No, I was saying play the 16ths straight. I don't think there's any way to swing 16ths without them becoming sixes or jumping a new tempo, or getting really goofy
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
If you are taking lessons 5 days a week simply explain your problem to your teacher. He will be able to give you hands on help.

"When in doubt ask."
Confucius
he wont write it out for me or show me! my teacher has a wierd way of teaching me, he has
me figure things out on my own, with his input and advanced examples of the simple things
im learning, he is a bit of a wierd teacher, his style is very different to, but he knows what
he is doing, hes been playing on broadway for 30 years, and i have advanced by leaps and
bounds,

and he picks really great books to teach out of.
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
Is it an issue with metric modulation? Set a metronome and practice moving from 8ths to triplets to 16th to sixes and back on the same tempo. Then play a swing rhythm, move to trips on the snare, then play 16ths, and try to get back into the same swing feel. eventually you should be able to run from swing to 16ths without thinking too hard.

Hope this helps. If this wasn't your issue, I hope this helps someone else reading.
do i play the 16ths swing or strait ? i can play 16ths then play triplets, i can
play the hole rhythmic scale no problem, i just have never played swing 16th notes? and
im also trying to figure out how they are applied, just a beat of 16th notes before the hit?
an jazz recordings with 16ths used would be greatly appreciated !
 

PreppieNerd

Silver Member
Is it an issue with metric modulation? Set a metronome and practice moving from 8ths to triplets to 16th to sixes and back on the same tempo. Then play a swing rhythm, move to trips on the snare, then play 16ths, and try to get back into the same swing feel. eventually you should be able to run from swing to 16ths without thinking too hard.

Hope this helps. If this wasn't your issue, I hope this helps someone else reading.
 
W

wy yung

Guest
If you are taking lessons 5 days a week simply explain your problem to your teacher. He will be able to give you hands on help.

"When in doubt ask."
Confucius
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
so yea u might no ive been studying jazz for a while, anyway i had my Daily lesson today,
( 5 days a week to be exact) and my teacher is really trying to get me to expand my arsenal
of on the fly jazz fills to set up long sounding horn hits (big band style, bass and crash on the hit)
and i feel like i have hit a dead end with triplet and sixlet variations, can you use
16th note fills for this? well i know you can, but i dont know how to feel them out, or how to
mix them in with 3's or 6's, or some normal 3 and 6 variations i may be missing. my teacher
say is very import that i feel them out on my own with his guidance (what ever that means)
all i know is he wont just write them out for me because i asked him and he said that,

so please any help, i hope to make a career out of the new wave of jazz going on in the
u.s , which is much more then just swing, so i know this stuff is crucial for me to greatest
extent ?

thanks,
zachary hopper
 
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