Music theory question, quick response needed!

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
I'm composing a 16 bar melody.....one in major one in minor in preperation for a test. But, i really don't want to compose two pieces as the minor one will have some serious flaws, so....
I have a piece in Gmajor, i modulate to the dominant in bar 8, and back to the tonic bar 12. What must I do to make this piece minor?.....I change the key to Eminor, but after modulating to the dominant, how do you modulate back in minor??

While the piece is in major (Gmajor), I use the chord V D, and the final note in that bar 12 is an F which leads me onto the G in bar 13.....how would i do this if it were minor??


Any help??? I'mdoing the test tomorrow!! It's either going to be major or minor, i guess major, because minor can get difficult, and it's a pretty easy exam, mostly essay questions
 

con struct

Platinum Member
First of all one would need to see your melody line to give a proper answer.

What you're doing with G major looks fine, depending, again, on your melodic line. But when it comes the the minor you need to specify which minor you're using for your melody. Is it natural, melodic or harmonic minor?

Also, if we're talking strictly functional harmony then the dominant in a minor key can still be a major triad. In that case all you'd need to do would be to replace your major third in the melody with a minor third.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
First of all one would need to see your melody line to give a proper answer.

What you're doing with G major looks fine, depending, again, on your melodic line. But when it comes the the minor you need to specify which minor you're using for your melody. Is it natural, melodic or harmonic minor?

Also, if we're talking strictly functional harmony then the dominant in a minor key can still be a major triad. In that case all you'd need to do would be to replace your major third in the melody with a minor third.
Ya, gotta say, I am very bad at music, and the music that I am doing is very simple stuff, I am guesing that it is a harmonic minor?

I know the little changes here and there that need to be done, my main question is about the modulation back to the tonic......If I am in Eminor, in order to get to the dominant i must first sound a Fchord, to make the change seem more natural, then in the next bar proceed with a B (major?)...


But modulating back is the problem, can i just use a B chord in bar 12 ( ending that bar on a D note, then starting bar 13 ( the new phrase) in the Eminor....? Again, it's very simple stuff

One other really noob question, if i am changing keys, do i have to change my original first bar that i was using in Gmajor?

And there is no voice leading on the assignment, easy stuff permanoob
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Hmmm, it sounds like you're rewriting a tune in its relative minor key? Unless I'm misunderstanding, it sounds like you just need to transpose your melody down a minor 3rd. Do it by scale degrees, not by moving individual notes down a minor 3rd (which would put you in E Maj). Since E is the relative minor to G Maj, it will have the same 1 # key signature.

Your thing in bars 12/13 (which should've been F# to G- you need the major 3rd in your D7 V chord in major) would now be D to E; the Bmin7 V chord in the minor key has a minor 3rd in it.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Have a listen to Beethoven's piano concerto in C minor, right at the very begining. The melody outlines a C minor triad: C Eb G. Then it outlines a D diminished chord: D F Ab, but the "chord" underneath that is the dominant G, a major triad. (In jazz it would be called a G7b9.) Then it walks back down to the C minor triad. I-V-I.

So what we have here is the harmonic minor scale, a minor third, a flatted sixth and a major seventh. If we're in G then we're looking at: G A Bb C D Eb F# G. Notice the minor third between the sixth and seventh degrees.

But this probably in no way addresses your problem because you haven't provided enough information.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
yeah, why don't you just do the parallel minor, change the key signature to b flat major and raise the seventh degree?
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
yeah, why don't you just do the parallel minor, change the key signature to b flat major and raise the seventh degree?
thanks for all of the comments, it's pretty much too late now to learn something new, but you're comment seems the easiest!.....raise the seventh degree??.....I'm just shockingly bad a theory and don't know what that means!...it's already a composition, but in major

And no, unfortunatly i don't have a scanner....sure whatever they ask, i should be able to put a positive spin on it! :)
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
thanks for all of the comments, it's pretty much too late now to learn something new, but you're comment seems the easiest!.....raise the seventh degree??.....I'm just shockingly bad a theory and don't know what that means!...it's already a composition, but in major

And no, unfortunatly i don't have a scanner....sure whatever they ask, i should be able to put a positive spin on it! :)
What you are doing is the harder of the two. You are transposing the melody down a third into the relative minor, e minor. If you use the parallel minor, g minor, you don't have to do anything but raise the f to f sharp and your composition is now in a minor key.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
What you are doing is the harder of the two. You are transposing the melody down a third into the relative minor, e minor. If you use the parallel minor, g minor, you don't have to do anything but raise the f to f sharp and your composition is now in a minor key.
So what you are saying is that all I have to do is make the key Gminor, and sharpen the f?.....
THIS IS MY FINAL QUESTION I SWEAR! So all i have to do when modulating back to the tonic is sharpen the f? Would I still be right when modulating to tthe dominant to go Gminor-----C (natural would it be?)-------Dmajor
 

con struct

Platinum Member
What you are doing is the harder of the two. You are transposing the melody down a third into the relative minor, e minor. If you use the parallel minor, g minor, you don't have to do anything but raise the f to f sharp and your composition is now in a minor key.
No, because G major already has the major seventh, the F#.

A parallel minor scale has a flatted third, sixth and seventh, so in G we'll have G A Bb C D Eb F natural and G. That's Bb major.

Hell, anyway I think that's right. Suddenly I feel that I'm back in music school!
 

Drummer Karl

KARL MEMBER
Hi,

well, I suggest to have a look at some basic harmonic patterns.
What you are doing is the general tonic-subdominant-dominant thing, for instance used in a basic blues. You could stick to that.

Now, a pattern used often certainly is the II-V-I cadenza. You just have to think in steps and its functions. If you turn the II V I around, you get kind of what you roughly played...this tonic-sub.-dom-tonic thing mentioned before. Though playing D- after the tonic C∆ (D- as the minor paralel to subdominant F∆) means to play paralel fifths which doesn`t sound...well...I would say...conservative. Though playing paralel fifths is used quite often nowadays (kind of like a real abrupt modulation).

The example for a II V I (if you`re in Gmaj key): A- D G∆
And you don`t have to jump over fourths and fifths. Basic voicing could be: A-C-E-G; A-C-D-F#; G-H-D-F#........so if you`re on the piano you just have to move your two fingers which play the fifth and the seventh down. And that`s actually the beginning of going around the circle of fifths, real though, not tonal.

Another turnaround is the 16 25. Well... I-VI-II-V-I. It`s makes a nice ending for example.

There are more possibilities of course. You could compose modal...8 bars of G-∆ and another 8 bars of G#-∆. Major makes it sound more interesting...the scale sounds more oriental.

Though...back to the II V I. In minor, it`s all a bit more difficult. ;-) You don`t have to compose in the minor paralel of G (E-).
Here`s an example of a II V I cadenza in G-.

A-7b5 D7(b9) G-∆ (or alternatively G-6)

The special thing is that you use different scales for each step. For II: natural minor, for V: harmonic minor and for I: melodic minor.

I hope that helped a bit. And I hope that I could express myself properly in English. For me it`s hard to talk about music theory in English since I may use some wrong words...still I hope that it is comprehensible.

Karl
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
No, because G major already has the major seventh, the F#.

A parallel minor scale has a flatted third, sixth and seventh, so in G we'll have G A Bb C D Eb F natural and G. That's Bb major.

Hell, anyway I think that's right. Suddenly I feel that I'm back in music school!
If you take a melody that is in G major, that is the key signature has an F sharp and the notes are G A B C D E F# G, and change the key signature to the relative major B flat, you now have a melody G A Bb C D Eb F G. Raise the F to F# , now you have V major and you have a harmonic minor scale. Certainly much easier than transposing the melody to e minor, which isn't really that hard either; bit Bosphorous wanted an easy way to do this. this take two seconds, and an eraser.
 

shadowlorde

Senior Member
music theory was always my worst subject in college, but i'll give it a shot. what if you just modulated to the relative minor so in Gmag relative minor would be emin. the VI chord becomes the I ... which should be fairly easy after a half cadence (I think that's the term .. when it ends on a V instead of a I ) damn .. this makes me realize that I have to dig up my music theory book from college and look through it again.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
Thanks for all of the responses, but in the end it dod'nt matter! The liars did'nt even ask that question, they gave 4 bars 6/8 12/8 6/8 9/8..something like that, it was much harded than i expected, you had to just continue it........I failed it.
( it was an entrance test to college)

the examiner did'nt say it, but i did fail the melody composing bit.....we had a nice chat though, he asked me if i actually understand theory, then he asked me if i actually want to persue and STUDY music. I think I won him over, rather politician like if i may say so!
The test was mostly about if you understand theory and you can play. He said that he was astounded at my playing ( Quite tickled about that one)...and loved all the fast jazz stuff. So all in all I got really good marks in 2 out of the three sections, so my guess is that i will be accepted.

Nothing to do with my skill level, but he was really concerned with why i want to study music. He was saying that i don't need college to become a playing musician....but i went on to give examples of drummers who are melodic aswell, and said i want to be well rounded...any of you get asked this question, or ponder it???
 
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