Muscular modulation of speech?

Sera

Member
I have been wondering, what is the maximum notevalue of speech?

For example:

You play some basspattern with doubles, your other hand plays 8th notes to somewrere and your other hand try to simulate speech in your mind in normal rhythm of speech to somewhere.

Not like Arnold in old movies, abrupted, but mostly like real people talk in this world their motherlanquage. Except, if you try to simulate Arnold in past.

Obviously it goes far over 64:th notes, but - main question - what you you think is the maximum notical value what human brains can modulate?
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Hey mate, I have no idea what you're asking.......I'm guessing I'm not alone either. Hence Larry weighed in with an humourous approach (at least i thought it was funny!!). Care to re-word your initial question?........Oh, and who the hell is Arnold??
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
Arnold is Schwartzeneggar, but I am lost and what is notical. Not in my dictionary. Can you reword this for we mortals.?>
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
I get it, When you are playing you can't say in your mind what you are playing as fast as you can play.
I don't know the answer, But I understand the question, I have also thought about this before. I don't get the Arnold S part though!
It is an interesting question.
Larry was only kidding. He also knows what you meant Im sure. Isn't that right Lar?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I didn't have the foggiest notion of what Mr. Sera was asking. Notical isn't a word is it? and modulating?...that's where you are in one key and you change to a different key, just one of many different definitions of the word...I'm impressed that you made any sense of that question Bob. You sure are a fart smeller.
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
You may not be able to say it, but you can think it. You have to tell your body every movement the sticks or feet are going to make, so the brain can modulate faster than you can think and for sure faster than you can vocalize. The more senses you put into play the slower the process. That's the reason for learning to read music by reading ahead. You don't read a note while you are playing it, you are reading the next 2 or 3. Are you asking in a very round about way how fast can a person can articulate separate words. there was a guy hired to
do commercials because he could speak very quickly. ??????????
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
I didn't have the foggiest notion of what Mr. Sera was asking. Notical isn't a word is it? and modulating?...that's where you are in one key and you change to a different key, just one of many different definitions of the word...I'm impressed that you made any sense of that question Bob. You sure are a fart smeller.
My notical fartier smarts are smellier than your notical smellier farticals!

Is that latin?
 

JPW

Silver Member
Actually I think what he is actually asking is the things like :

"how fast can you hear?"
"how fast can you think?"
and "how fast can you transfer that thought to your limb to produce a stroke?"

These are all relevant to playing drums, but very hard to prove any limit on them on an objective level. We can practice all of them though. Both Jojo Mayer and Benny Greb talk about these things on their DVDs.

My theory is that physiological maximum frequency of muscle twitch is somewhere between 20-25Hz, there has been some studies that at least indicate that the shiver we get from exposure to cold is at that range so it would make sense that body uses it's maximum ability to produce heat in such extreme conditions.

So, we can twich that fast. How fast can we hear? Only thing I found on a short literature search was that human reaction time for sounds is around 160ms and that you can make it more consistent with practice. There wasn't really any studies involving musicians. If someone finds one please let me know, it would be an interesting read.

Now if human reaction time to sound is only 160ms (6,25 per second) one has to wonder, can a player that can play 20 strokes a second (1200 bpm) really stop at any of those notes or accent any of those notes. I think they can, but it's more of matter of knowing how to apply different rudiments.

For example we can say "house" without thinking about letters "h", "o", "u", "s" and "e" seperately, so when we have practiced enough we can play forexample paradiddle without thinking about all the single storkes and diddles seperately. So we sort of cheat our hearing ability. When we want to accent in a very fast roll we know before hand where the accent is going to land and we set it up in our mind with upstrokes and downstrokes and different rudimental applications. And the end result is a smooth accenting, flamming or anything you want regardles if you actually could hear it that fast.

How fast can we think. I don't know, I don't know if anyone knows. But what I do know is that when you have slept well and aren't involved in any mind numbing drugs your thinking is faster.

Hearing consistently and fast and transforming the thought to action with rudiments is the key to speaking with drums.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
How about this? http://discovermagazine.com/2009/dec/16-the-brain-what-is-speed-of-thought

High speed is also crucial to the way we perceive the world. Three or four times a second, our eyes dart in a new direction, allowing us only about a tenth of a second to make sense of what we see in each spot. And we make remarkably good use of that time.

Recently, neuroscientists Michelle Greene and Aude Oliva of MIT ran an experiment in which they briefly showed people a series of landscapes and then asked questions about the scenes. For example, was there a forest in the picture? Did it look like a hot place? People did well on these tests even when they glimpsed each of the pictures for less than one tenth of a second.​

The article concludes with:

So when Helmholtz recognized that thought moves at a finite rate, faster than a bird but slower than sound, he missed a fundamental difference between the brain and a telegraph. In our heads, speed is not always the most important thing. Sometimes what really matters is timing.​

And the writer isn't even a drummer ...
 

JPW

Silver Member
Sometimes what really matters is timing.
But what is "timing" though. We know what it is, but how do we actually achieve it? Some say they can hear or feel the pulse in their heads so they can predict where to place to desired note. But what is that feeling or hearing the pulse actually? Is it just some syncronized thought process or is it a multitasked seperate process somewhere in the brain or what?

There was this interesting part in this bass DVD by Victor Wooten where he talked about predicting where the note should fall. So he had done these things where he programs a pulse to a drum machine to give him for example give one quarter note once in a while and goes out of the room, closes the door and comes back and predicts quite closely where the note lands. I remember he could predict it about at eight note precision (or accuracy hmm, never remeber the difference =P). Interesting test though on inner clock. Benny Greb also does this sort of thing a lot on part of his dvd.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Yea but....Mr. Sera was talking about speech, not stick movement. I still don't understand what the connection is between talking fast and drumming, but then again I'm probably barking (as fast as I can) up the wrong tree. He made himself abundantly unclear with his OP.

Maybe he thought this was a singers forum. I wonder if there is such a forum? What a collection of egos that would be, there probably isn't enough server space to accomodate those titanic sized egos ha ha. Hey if you're a singer, I'M KIDDING!
 

Sera

Member
Hey mate, I have no idea what you're asking.......I'm guessing I'm not alone either. Hence Larry weighed in with an humourous approach (at least i thought it was funny!!). Care to re-word your initial question?........Oh, and who the hell is Arnold??
I'll try to explain.

I'm completely self-taught drummer, so there are huge possibility that I cannot always use same language when I talk about drumming with those who knows theories and all the right words to speak.

Same goes to my english, try to improve that too.

Question was what note values use normal speech, because there must be somesort of note- or timevalues for speech.

"Muscular modulation" represents me that thing what happens when you go 4:th notes to 8:th notes and upwards from there. And downwards, gear down.

Reaching out next level of muscular modulation. Thats my word for that thing.

600 ppm modulated to next level is 1200 ppm.


For an example:

Play random basspattern with doubles, or do something with your both legs.

That's rhythmic pattern 1.

Then play 8:th notes with your other hand. (Or thiplets or something.)

That's rhythmic pattern 2.

Now, think some verbal sentence, and try to repeat it in right timevalues with drums. Beat of natural speechs in your mind played with drums.

That's rhythmic pattern 3.


"just messing aroung", "just messing around".

Stretch and narrow sensences in your mind, and try to repeat beat of natural speech with your drums.

Then change basspatterns, and hands. And sentences. And finally read some books and play those words and sentences from there.

There must be somesort of note values what are used to produce speech. Or not.

I don't know and every teacher this far I have asked for professional help about theoretical side of drumming has turned me away. Most of them don't even answer to me after few messages.

Sorry about confusion.

Looking for a teacher.
 

Sera

Member
Arnold is Schwartzeneggar, but I am lost and what is notical. Not in my dictionary. Can you reword this for we mortals.?>
Well, my schizophrenic mind told me that there could be that kind of word, builded from "note".

So, there was no such word in world, and context apparently was not strong enought to pass my meaning through.
 

JPW

Silver Member
If I remember correctly Frank Zappa asked Steve Vai to tab some recorded speech at one point. I saw the transcriptions somewhere and they were quite mind bending. I think it was on Vai's webpage.
 

fugazi

Member
do you mean that, for example some people use the word cho-co-late to remember how a triplet sounds like. And then how fast they can think (or say in their head) the word chocolate?


'Cause i do have some sort of audio thing in my head which repeats itself in the same speed as my triplets, and to be honest i can't drum triplets faster than i can think that audio thingy. Luckily i can think pretty fast, though hehe.
 

denisri

Silver Member
Hi Sera
If I understand your question???? I offer this...Counting out loud at around quarter note equals approximately 130 to 140BPM my small brain needs to switch from a quarter note count to half note count..ie:half note is equal to 70 BPM or more. It"s alot easer to count and I can play much faster!
Give a half note count tempo's of 110BMP(or quarter note of 220) or more can be handled by a drummer.
The brain and eye can process information much faster than our mouths can move. As noted by Polyanna.Denis
 
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