Led Zep Vs Spirit issue

Nancy_C

Senior Member
Yeah, I think that's a bit of a history rewrite. The product of the baby boom were born into a world of riches and comfort, and they turned into nihilists. If you look at the sit-ins at the colleges you can see that they were relatively infrequently about the 'hypocrisy of society' and generally about kids wanting more stuff. And the hippie movement really exploded due to two events: Vietnam (kids just didn't want to go off and fight a war) and drugs.

There's a reason we call the WWII generation "the greatest generation" and we call their kids "hippies". The hippies gave us some good music ... but that's about it.
The hippie movement of the mid-to-late-'60s came directly out of the student movement of the late '50s and early '60s, which in turn came out of the civil rights movement. All of these were woven into a textile that remains a part of America's social, political, and religious fabric. (It's the rug under America's drumset! Yeehaw, a drum-related metaphor!) To dismiss their participants' efforts and the lives that were sacrificed toward their valuable, indeed necessary goals would seem to be either disingenuous or ignorant.

I don't mean this as a personal insult, AllTheCool. The tendency to bash U.S. baby boomers has been growing steadily for a good 15 or 20 years now, and hippie-bashing has been a popular adjunct to that criticism. I do wonder if yours was a throwaway comment that didn't really represent your knowledge of U.S. sociopolitical events of the second half of the last century.

The hippie movement cannot be separated from the civil rights movement when you're speaking of its actual effects on U.S. society (and others). As a bonus, it helped the country recover from a long, necessary period of upheaval in a more gentle way than it had entered it -- or was trying to, until Manson pushed the whole thing off a cliff in '69.

(Looks like the prednisone is kicking in. I apologize for any offense or misunderstanding on my part.)

ETA: Goodness, I thought this was in the off-topic lounge. My sincere apologies. I will of course understand if this post is deleted.
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
CoolNames, prostitution hasn't increased relative to population, just that it's not hidden any more. As for evidence of wife bashing in the past, it's through much of my family history. But it was okay back then because the man had to keep the woman in line [sic]. Also was hidden.

In the 60s, the establishment was held up as virtuous while it behaved corruptly and violently (not much has changed there - the 60s didn't change that).

Opentune covered depression and cancer. We also have a growing population and the problems caused by more conflicts of interest.

Better agree to disagree, this being a drum forum and all.

Whatever, back in the 70s musical plagiarism was not seen the way it is today, and neither were drugs, groupies, trashing of hotel rooms or avoidance of using clicks as a matter of pride. These days bands tend to be more professionally minded.

Attitudes change and it's easy to judge history from a modern moral perspective, as though the learning of the last 40 years didn't happen. Of course it was ripped off, but attitudes towards that kind of plagiarism have since changed through the legal system and the increased chance of being caught.
 
Think of the Victorian days when even table legs had to be covered with cloth lest men have lascivious thoughts. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, there was a thriving female, male and child prostitution trade. Hypocritical conservatism.
No, not at all. All those forms of prostitution exist today and in a far greater scale, so it seems to me that 'liberalizing' public behavior was a net negative.

So in the 50s and early 60s one didn't speak of "impolite things", but behind the scenes there was rampant wife bashing, child abuse and all manner of corruption, rip offs and worse.
I don't see any reason to believe this to be true either. There is rampant corruption today. There don't appear to be any documented statistics of spousal abuse or child abuse, but both still exist today. And if you want a great indicator of how far we've "progressed", check the depression rates. They're crazy high now.

This was the 60s zeitgeist - where the disconnect between society's words and actions was so great that it sparked rebellion and a devil-may-care attitude in the young.
Yeah, I think that's a bit of a history rewrite. The product of the baby boom were born into a world of riches and comfort, and they turned into nihilists. If you look at the sit-ins at the colleges you can see that they were relatively infrequently about the 'hypocrisy of society' and generally about kids wanting more stuff. And the hippie movement really exploded due to two events: Vietnam (kids just didn't want to go off and fight a war) and drugs.

There's a reason we call the WWII generation "the greatest generation" and we call their kids "hippies". The hippies gave us some good music ... but that's about it.
 

coolhand1969

Senior Member
The Blues are the cornerstone of Rock n Roll

Robert Johnson is considered the Father of the blues (Keith Richards/Clapton and Page are quoted saying this, as well as Muddy Waters)

I doubt anyone is going to challenge Muddy's knowledge of the blues

Follow the bread path and every rock band owes Robert Johnson at least 50% of their earnings

ETC: Band I am listening to now - Hollywood Undead - by the by these guys are HUGE ZEP fans - 1st album was entitled Swan Song -
 
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Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
I'm taking about the spirit of the day. I can't rewrite history.

So in the 50s and early 60s one didn't speak of "impolite things", but behind the scenes there was rampant wife bashing, child abuse and all manner of corruption, rip offs and worse.
This is true. Plus, I'm positive that many of the blues songs by recorded blues artists that were copied by rock bands, took a few of their riffs from various other even more obscure blues artists during their travels up and down the river from the Mississippi Delta to Chicago. Many people didn't have a record player while they were travelling around and playing music. They shared music with each other, each player remembering it a different way. What you hear Zeppelin doing really isn't that much different than what the artists that came before them did.
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
I do, however, object to this 'hypocritical conservative society' stuff. Conservative? Sure. Hypocritical? Hard to buy. So we lost the conservatism ... but on the other hand, with the power of the Internet, you can see hypocrisy every day in the modern world.
I'm taking about the spirit of the day. I can't rewrite history.

Think of the Victorian days when even table legs had to be covered with cloth lest men have lascivious thoughts. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, there was a thriving female, male and child prostitution trade. Hypocritical conservatism.

So in the 50s and early 60s one didn't speak of "impolite things", but behind the scenes there was rampant wife bashing, child abuse and all manner of corruption, rip offs and worse.

This was the 60s zeitgeist - where the disconnect between society's words and actions was so great that it sparked rebellion and a devil-may-care attitude in the young. If you disregard society's taboos and laws, why get hung up about plagiarism? Some probably adhered to an "outlaws code" where you didn't rip off "one of your own" but I think Page and Plant felt that their style was so far enough removed from the originals that they ripped off, that it didn't count. Everything was less integrated then - it was just radio and TV and a lot of stuff like the old blues greats largely fell under the radar.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
Has anybody got patent on 'matched grip' or 'double shuffle'?
If not, forget it Ringo, Charles Connor - I got dibs. I'm goin' down to the office now.
 

AudioWonderland

Silver Member
Is it similar? Yes. Identical? No.

The real issue is that ultimately it is a chord progression which cannot be copyrighted. From that standpoint eve if it were identical I am not sure there is a case here.

Setting all of that aside, I have an issues with filing 40+ years after the fact. Its just a money grab
 

paradiddle pete

Platinum Member
I read somewhere once that Carmine Appice says to John Bonham i might borrow those bass drum triplets you do, John replies i borrowed them from you. Music back then was about moving people.
 
There's a few tracks labelled "Trad. arranged by Page", like Babe and Gallows Pole. It is hard for today's people to have even the slightest idea just how ignorant we were in the 60s and 70s without internet.

You might like a riff or melody you heard one time on the radio but you never heard it again. No Google or YouTube or forums to help you sleuth down a song if you missed the DJ calling the title. So you figure you might as well use that riff or melody. You ask around and no one seems to have heard of it.

It's easy to forget just how much we were in the dark back then. So, yes, Zep ripped off some stuff but I doubt it was as cynical as it would seem now. They probably didn't want to restrict their creative flow with the kind of concerns suits worried about. Hard rock was about as accepted then as metal is today and you didn't get into it because you admired what was touted as "a model citizen".

It was about breaking out of the shackles of hypocritical conservative society, so you had wild music, casual sex, drug gluttony, property destruction ... and, yes, some copyright theft.
That's an important distinction: you can justify a lot of old-school 'plagiarism' with this mentality, which is why I think we should be less critical of it.

I do, however, object to this 'hypocritical conservative society' stuff. Conservative? Sure. Hypocritical? Hard to buy. So we lost the conservatism ... but on the other hand, with the power of the Internet, you can see hypocrisy every day in the modern world.
 

tamadrm

Platinum Member
Even if they copied they are still led zeppelin.
So what?That gives them license to just do what they want?You want to give them permission,because the're Zep?That's fan boy stuff.Great band,got it,and I'm a fan also,but a shoe is still nothing but a shoe,no matter who's wearing it.

Steve B
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
(credited and becoming widely popular as "traditional") ...
There's a few tracks labelled "Trad. arranged by Page", like Babe and Gallows Pole. It is hard for today's people to have even the slightest idea just how ignorant we were in the 60s and 70s without internet.

You might like a riff or melody you heard one time on the radio but you never heard it again. No Google or YouTube or forums to help you sleuth down a song if you missed the DJ calling the title. So you figure you might as well use that riff or melody. You ask around and no one seems to have heard of it.

It's easy to forget just how much we were in the dark back then. So, yes, Zep ripped off some stuff but I doubt it was as cynical as it would seem now. They probably didn't want to restrict their creative flow with the kind of concerns suits worried about. Hard rock was about as accepted then as metal is today and you didn't get into it because you admired what was touted as "a model citizen".

It was about breaking out of the shackles of hypocritical conservative society, so you had wild music, casual sex, drug gluttony, property destruction ... and, yes, some copyright theft.
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
You are indeed correct.​
"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" is a folk song written by Anne Bredon (then known as Anne Johannsen) in the late 1950s. It was recorded by Joan Baez (credited and becoming widely popular as "traditional") and released on her 1962 album Joan Baez in Concert, Part 1, and also by the English rock band Led Zeppelin, who included it on their 1969 debut album Led Zeppelin.​
Maybe Anne Bredon should sue Chicago.​
I was gonna get back to BFrench, but had nothing to add at the time.

All very interesting...

I give you Exibit B:

http://youtu.be/2jqPZ8L-yWo

and Exhibit C:

http://youtu.be/3-vOFPP0WDI
 

harryconway

Platinum Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Babe..... a cover? I thought it was written by a folk artist not by them?
You are indeed correct.​
"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" is a folk song written by Anne Bredon (then known as Anne Johannsen) in the late 1950s. It was recorded by Joan Baez (credited and becoming widely popular as "traditional") and released on her 1962 album Joan Baez in Concert, Part 1, and also by the English rock band Led Zeppelin, who included it on their 1969 debut album Led Zeppelin.​
... the Chorus in Baby, I'm Gonna Leave You is also borrowed from Chicago's 25 or 6 to 4.
Maybe Anne Bredon should sue Chicago.​
 

tamadrm

Platinum Member
Steal an apple,steal a car,you're still a thief.Different degree,granted,but it is what it is.Most of the theft,was from unknown singer/songwriters,so less of a chance of being found out.Most songwriters are guilty of this in some way.Listen to Steve Millers "The Snake" and Joe Walshs "Rocky Mountain Way",which came first.

And as I pointed out before,"The Lemon Song".Page has been sued numerous times,and mostly,rightfully so.

Steve B
 

MisterZero

Senior Member
Then this will really flip your lid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M :)
A few of these are reaches, I think. Communication Breakdown was way different, and I disagree with How many more times. We need to separate plagiarism and influence. Being a Zep fan, I'm going to naturally lean in their favor, I'm trying to be non-biased here, but I think they were influenced on some of these tunes, and expanded on them, making them great. How come none of these other songs that Zep "stole" were even heard of?? Page took snippets here and there, added AMAZING sounding drums, and turned these into masterpieces.
 
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