Knowing yourself - sometimes it's -------------

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Unfortunately Larry, I'm well acquainted with failure, but I have a rubber constitution plus a high degree of stupidity, hence I still try stuff :)

LOLOLOLOL! If your Pop wore a rubber, you'd have found a way through lol

I'm ok (ish) on the last point, but on the first two, I'm faking it big time.
Oh man that's how I learn, I fake it. I'm fairly undisciplined. I never listened to Reggae. I don't do the one drop. Not really sure what it is TBH. But we do about 6 reggae tunes. I accent beat 3 a lot, it's my downbeat/rimclick/pssht unison thing that makes it feel like reggae to me. I have no idea if that's even in the vocabulary, I just feel it like that.

I've gotten a couple unexpected compliments from other musicians how much they like my reggae beats. I'm like OooooKayyy...I have no clue what I'm doing. So OK I try and make it feel like reggae without it being actual reggae. I'm totally faking it, but it doesn't seem to matter. We play the old standard "Fly Me To The Moon". I never played anything like that before. I just play off what the others are doing, it doesn't matter that I don't know the style. I can hear what it needs without knowing the style.

Faking it is great fun. Like I'm fooling them lol.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
My point is, at this age, covers bands are a dime a dozen, but opportunities to play originals is few and far between. I wouldn't join just any band, but I would stretch my drumming prowess to fit a project that may not be my preferred style just to play originals because covers bands just don't really do it for me.
I'm with you on that message. I'm older than you, & have to fight even harder against age related apathy re original material. It's a young persons game mostly, & I'm not :(

He doesn't know how to fail.
Unfortunately Larry, I'm well acquainted with failure, but I have a rubber constitution plus a high degree of stupidity, hence I still try stuff :)


Guys, the decision was a simple effort vs. reward calculation. This band would require (according to my thinking) a fairly wide range of latin grooves, a broad jazz comping ability, & mastery of low dynamic intensity. I'm ok (ish) on the last point, but on the first two, I'm faking it big time. With the "spare" time I have available, it would take me at least a year to get good enough to satisfy myself. If the band was something out of this world, then a different decision, but they were just very good, & that wasn't enough to tip the balance. Ultimately, I wasn't prepared to enter into something that would frustrate me, & possibly equate to me letting them down. I don't do letting people down at all well!
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Oh yea, no question he could have done it. He doesn't know how to fail. Well that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting anyway. That's why I went through that whole process just like you.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
But at the end of the day Andy decided it wasn't for him, and he knows himself best. So I support him.
That's what I said on the first line in my post, so yes, I support and respect his decision... despite the fact I know Andy could do it... by being Andy :)
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
At the end of the day, it's your call, it's your feelings and if you didn't feel right for the job, whatever the reasons, we have to respect your decision...

... but as a matter of a discussion topic, I'll add a few comments on this complicated and ambiguous situation :)



Did you apply for the audition or did they call you?

Do you know if they auditioned other drummers?

It does make a difference...

While Karen admit herself "I didn't necessarily see us as a fit when I saw your links", if they called YOU, it means that they had/see something in their minds that you could fit the drummer's spot, which suggest that maybe they wanted the band to take a new road, often bands/artists have hired an out of character player to bring something new, fresh and different to their music.

If you called them to have an audition, then, yes, all your concerns and reservations makes perfect sense, only you can decide if you can fit or not fit, even if they liked your playing, you made the move towards them, they didn't, even if you put an idea/path in their heads, it remains your call.



This to me indicate that they seen that your drumming would fit their perspective/structure for the future.

Referring to my audition with CP, they call me... which implied that they wanted something different than the "normal" recipe for such a band, once I was part of the band, they made me listen to some recordings featuring their previous (1st) drummer, oh my... it was like day and night, water and wine, this guy was a "proper" jazz drummer, but I guess I fitted for the new path they wanted to take, and to be honest, I didn't have to make such an effort to change my style of drumming, most of the changes I had to make were more orientated within dynamics in my playing.



When I auditioned for CP I had a double bass drums set up consisting of 2 24", 13", 14" in power size, 18", 14"x8" and a side 14"x5"... a long way from the previous drummer's 4 piece set up in standard jazz size, lol

Same with my cymbals set up, 18" and 19" rock crashes, 22" Earth ride, not what you call subtle :)



Indeed Jon, it has actually open doors for me in my professional life.

Now if someone call you Jon for an audition and they offer you the drummer seat, in my book your integrity is intact, they chose and wanted you, your integrity could have been what got you the gig :)



Perhaps... difficult to say without hearing and seeing the audition.




Yes, your perception... not necessarily theirs...

In one of CP's song, the original arrangement was played with brushes, very jazz like... and it ended up with a strong groove with a fat backbeat when I played it, you would barely be able to say it was the same song.

Also when I joined CP, everything was much easier when we wrote new material together, in the end we only played 2 or 3 tracks live which were written before my time in the band, I believe that the chemistry of the players in a band affect the end result, it's not better or worse, it's just a chapter in a band's life, you change that chemistry, you change the end result.

I still believe that you would have fitted Karen's band and be part of that chapter of this band, bringing something different in the meantime.

Sorry for the long post, but the point is: Being an out of character as a player doesn't necessarily mean a player could not fit a band, or indeed, need to change his natural style.
I thought all of this too. But at the end of the day Andy decided it wasn't for him, and he knows himself best. So I support him.
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
Now that I'm middle-aged, I'm finding that opportunities to do original stuff are becoming less and less because most of the bands are younger people who don't want players over 30 y.o.

I'm in a covers band and originals band and I'll tell you what, the originals band is far more gratifying to me musically. I've played those cover songs a thousand times and it just becomes dull after awhile. Sometimes I feel like I want to quit because of the the fact that I'm so sick of those songs. We just got our Hammond player back last Thurs. in the originals band and the vibe was just amazing. I had just watched the James Brown movie before I went to practice, so I came with a Clyde frame of mind. It got funky. I'll take that musical journey any day over a boring gig at a shithole bar playing cover songs. I appreciate playing gigs, but it's mostly drumming for them, not me.


My point is, at this age, covers bands are a dime a dozen, but opportunities to play originals is few and far between. I wouldn't join just any band, but I would stretch my drumming prowess to fit a project that may not be my preferred style just to play originals because covers bands just don't really do it for me.
 
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Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
At the end of the day, it's your call, it's your feelings and if you didn't feel right for the job, whatever the reasons, we have to respect your decision...

... but as a matter of a discussion topic, I'll add a few comments on this complicated and ambiguous situation :)

I went to an audition last night...
Did you apply for the audition or did they call you?

Do you know if they auditioned other drummers?

It does make a difference...

While Karen admit herself "I didn't necessarily see us as a fit when I saw your links", if they called YOU, it means that they had/see something in their minds that you could fit the drummer's spot, which suggest that maybe they wanted the band to take a new road, often bands/artists have hired an out of character player to bring something new, fresh and different to their music.

If you called them to have an audition, then, yes, all your concerns and reservations makes perfect sense, only you can decide if you can fit or not fit, even if they liked your playing, you made the move towards them, they didn't, even if you put an idea/path in their heads, it remains your call.

I feel I can speak for the rest of the band when I say we also enjoyed meeting you very much AND having your fantastic drumming even if only for one night, so it's a bit of a disappointment...

Warm wishes
Karen
This to me indicate that they seen that your drumming would fit their perspective/structure for the future.

Referring to my audition with CP, they call me... which implied that they wanted something different than the "normal" recipe for such a band, once I was part of the band, they made me listen to some recordings featuring their previous (1st) drummer, oh my... it was like day and night, water and wine, this guy was a "proper" jazz drummer, but I guess I fitted for the new path they wanted to take, and to be honest, I didn't have to make such an effort to change my style of drumming, most of the changes I had to make were more orientated within dynamics in my playing.

Even worse, I brought a Tour series kit (22", 16", 12", 14" x 7"). Not exactly designed for the gig!
When I auditioned for CP I had a double bass drums set up consisting of 2 24", 13", 14" in power size, 18", 14"x8" and a side 14"x5"... a long way from the previous drummer's 4 piece set up in standard jazz size, lol

Same with my cymbals set up, 18" and 19" rock crashes, 22" Earth ride, not what you call subtle :)

Personal and professional integrity are so crucial, in every aspect of life.
Indeed Jon, it has actually open doors for me in my professional life.

Now if someone call you Jon for an audition and they offer you the drummer seat, in my book your integrity is intact, they chose and wanted you, your integrity could have been what got you the gig :)

I think if you'd been at the audition with me, you'd probably come to the same conclusion as I did.
Perhaps... difficult to say without hearing and seeing the audition.


...but it's less of a leap compared to this band's needs (or at least, my perception of their needs).
Yes, your perception... not necessarily theirs...

In one of CP's song, the original arrangement was played with brushes, very jazz like... and it ended up with a strong groove with a fat backbeat when I played it, you would barely be able to say it was the same song.

Also when I joined CP, everything was much easier when we wrote new material together, in the end we only played 2 or 3 tracks live which were written before my time in the band, I believe that the chemistry of the players in a band affect the end result, it's not better or worse, it's just a chapter in a band's life, you change that chemistry, you change the end result.

I still believe that you would have fitted Karen's band and be part of that chapter of this band, bringing something different in the meantime.

Sorry for the long post, but the point is: Being an out of character as a player doesn't necessarily mean a player could not fit a band, or indeed, need to change his natural style.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
Not at all mate, I was not taking a pop at you. By comfort zone I mean just that, something you hardly even need to think about. When we first start playing our comfort zone is very small indeed, as we play and practice it expands, when we step up and play live it is scary but evenyualy our comfort zone expands to include playing in front of an audience.

Surely this would have just been another step along that road. You said yourself you enjoyed it, and the band liked you.

I recently helped form a Jazz Funk band with some great musicians, I have never played the genre in my life. I am working hard but loving the challenge, the other guys also said they are having to raise there game as we are pushing each other and keeping up with a great vocalist. At 63 its a new lease of life to be living on my musical edge again.
Thanks Mike. I didn't take that as having a pop at me in the least :)

I agree with everything you're saying, but the sheer amount of work I would need to put in is unrealistic in my situation. I'm already recently playing for an act that's pushing me into playing areas I'm not comfortable with, but it's less of a leap compared to this band's needs (or at least, my perception of their needs). Additionally, I'm in a long standing rock covers band, & that's the act that doesn't push me too much musically.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
Corrected for you - bless ;)

Yes, but much deeper than that. Outside of your / my "comfort zone" is often used as a musically polite way of saying you / someone is crap at something. I'm crap at some of the technique / style I believe is necessary for this band. Sure, I could wing it & get away with it, but if I want to do something, I need to be satisfied I'm performing to a fairly high (comparatively) standard. To get to that point with the range of styles necessary for this band, would require years of work, & I don't have the time or dedication for that.

I don't really TBH Larry, but I have a habit of creating time. Not sure where I steal it from, but I seem to get away with it. I was in the workshop until gone midnight last night, & I suspect something similar today. I find time to post here whilst waiting for shellac coats to dry & gaps in other activities that require curing / settling times.

Drive wasn't too bad - around 40 miles / 50 minutes. For the right band, that's a non issue, & less than our guitarist in Fired Up currently travels for weekly rehearsals. Especially where I live, if you want access to good players / bands, then be prepared to travel.
Not at all mate, I was not taking a pop at you. By comfort zone I mean just that, something you hardly even need to think about. When we first start playing our comfort zone is very small indeed, as we play and practice it expands, when we step up and play live it is scary but evenyualy our comfort zone expands to include playing in front of an audience.

Surely this would have just been another step along that road. You said yourself you enjoyed it, and the band liked you.

I recently helped form a Jazz Funk band with some great musicians, I have never played the genre in my life. I am working hard but loving the challenge, the other guys also said they are having to raise there game as we are pushing each other and keeping up with a great vocalist. At 63 its a new lease of life to be living on my musical edge again.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
That hurts, because it's true.....
Corrected for you - bless ;)

[/B]

Is it because it would have taken you outside your comfort zone? Surely thats a good thing?
Yes, but much deeper than that. Outside of your / my "comfort zone" is often used as a musically polite way of saying you / someone is crap at something. I'm crap at some of the technique / style I believe is necessary for this band. Sure, I could wing it & get away with it, but if I want to do something, I need to be satisfied I'm performing to a fairly high (comparatively) standard. To get to that point with the range of styles necessary for this band, would require years of work, & I don't have the time or dedication for that.

Frankly, I can't believe you have the time to even consider a 3rd band.
I don't really TBH Larry, but I have a habit of creating time. Not sure where I steal it from, but I seem to get away with it. I was in the workshop until gone midnight last night, & I suspect something similar today. I find time to post here whilst waiting for shellac coats to dry & gaps in other activities that require curing / settling times.

"thank you for making the long trip over "

A bit of a drive eh mate? Would factor in for me too.
Drive wasn't too bad - around 40 miles / 50 minutes. For the right band, that's a non issue, & less than our guitarist in Fired Up currently travels for weekly rehearsals. Especially where I live, if you want access to good players / bands, then be prepared to travel.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Frankly, I can't believe you have the time to even consider a 3rd band. You continue to be my hero.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
I can only agree with this Henri, but without appearing to be arrogant, I think I know what they need to serve the music long term, & it's not me. I understand exactly where you're coming from re: your previous band, & to me, the fit was obvious. I think if you'd been at the audition with me, you'd probably come to the same conclusion as I did. Ultimately, it's an effort vs. reward thing. If the opportunity was absolutely stellar, then maybe I could have taken the journey. The opportunity was very good, but not a game changer. Now the dream band with full brass section, that's a whole 'nuther basis for a decision :)

I could begin to take you seriously if your punctuation ability exceeded that of a 5 year old ;)

Absolutely Jon. It always pays in the end. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Being true to others is a great life mantra, but being true to yourself if often the hardest path of all.


Mike, if it was only the fact that the music wasn't ideal for me, or that a degree of work on my part would equip me for the gig, I would have taken it. I recently took a gig exactly as I've just described, & I'm enjoying it. This was different. I just knew in my bones that I would need a lot of work to deliver the kind of performance I would be happy with. Sure, this band would have been fine with me as I am, but I wouldn't. I'm fairly self critical.


Is it because it would have taken you outside your comfort zone? Surely thats a good thing?
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
While I think it's strange that a band offer a position to a musician which is not the right type musically, it can be beneficial for both, at the end of the day, they played their music and you played like you, if they offered you the position, it mean that they like/loved what you did and that perhaps you wouldn't had to make has much adjustment/work on your style of playing as you thought it would need. That was your interpretation of what type of drummer's needed for them, obviously, not their views, they've seen something in you that you haven't seen yourself :)
I can only agree with this Henri, but without appearing to be arrogant, I think I know what they need to serve the music long term, & it's not me. I understand exactly where you're coming from re: your previous band, & to me, the fit was obvious. I think if you'd been at the audition with me, you'd probably come to the same conclusion as I did. Ultimately, it's an effort vs. reward thing. If the opportunity was absolutely stellar, then maybe I could have taken the journey. The opportunity was very good, but not a game changer. Now the dream band with full brass section, that's a whole 'nuther basis for a decision :)

dude you almost fooled me this time. until I read the "return" email. total fabrication on your part. No one, and I mean no one would compliment your playing. I know it feels good to pat yourself on the back once in a while but to make up a story like this just to put it one the forum is just childish! its not even april fools day, you could have at least saved it for then.
I could begin to take you seriously if your punctuation ability exceeded that of a 5 year old ;)

Personal and professional integrity are so crucial, in every aspect of life.
Absolutely Jon. It always pays in the end. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Being true to others is a great life mantra, but being true to yourself if often the hardest path of all.


I can completely understand your point of view, but If it was enjoyable, and the band sounded like they enjoyed your playing, then why not?

If it was only cos it was not your usual thing, but you enjoyed it, then surely it could have become your thing and also expanded your experience and ability.

Just a thought, as you seem to have a good time and liked the songs and the people.
Mike, if it was only the fact that the music wasn't ideal for me, or that a degree of work on my part would equip me for the gig, I would have taken it. I recently took a gig exactly as I've just described, & I'm enjoying it. This was different. I just knew in my bones that I would need a lot of work to deliver the kind of performance I would be happy with. Sure, this band would have been fine with me as I am, but I wouldn't. I'm fairly self critical.
 
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mikel

Platinum Member
I can completely understand your point of view, but If it was enjoyable, and the band sounded like they enjoyed your playing, then why not?

If it was only cos it was not your usual thing, but you enjoyed it, then surely it could have become your thing and also expanded your experience and ability.

Just a thought, as you seem to have a good time and liked the songs and the people.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Personal and professional integrity are so crucial, in every aspect of life.
 

no talent

Senior Member
dude you almost fooled me this time. until I read the "return" email. total fabrication on your part. No one, and I mean no one would compliment your playing. I know it feels good to pat yourself on the back once in a while but to make up a story like this just to put it one the forum is just childish! its not even april fools day, you could have at least saved it for then.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
I’ve given this much thought, & although I believe I could carry the gig, I don’t think it’s right for me. I think you need a player who’s more experienced / comfortable in a lighter dynamic playing environment, as well as someone who leans more towards the jazz / popular / easy listening spectrum than me. I would frequently be thinking that the songs deserve drum parts that I’m not equipped to provide with any depth & credibility, & I would find that personally very frustrating.
What you wrote in your email has a taste of "deja vu" for me...

... that was exactly my thoughts when I auditioned for "Compartiment Fumeurs" back in the 80's, a jazzy/funk/french variety type of band with a horn section didn't seemed right for me, since I was coming from a heavy rock type of music at the time, I was literally shocked when they offered me the drummer position in the band... and although I had the same reservations as you did, I thought "why not? it could push me forward and expend my musical career"... so I accepted their offer and I never regretted it, I had a 4 years trip with this band, including some studio recordings... if anything, this band opened my view on drumming and made me more confident about myself drumming wise... I still do not understand why they hired me though, so out of style, so out of my confident zone.

While I think it's strange that a band offer a position to a musician which is not the right type musically, it can be beneficial for both, at the end of the day, they played their music and you played like you, if they offered you the position, it mean that they like/loved what you did and that perhaps you wouldn't had to make has much adjustment/work on your style of playing as you thought it would need. That was your interpretation of what type of drummer's needed for them, obviously, not their views, they've seen something in you that you haven't seen yourself :)

On the other hand, I really like the dream idea of your high energy funk act with full brass section but rock foundations, it would be my kinda band too :)
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
Interesting decision, Andy. Maybe there was a touch of the gig not quite being your cuppa as well? Your adventure with the other band showed that you're prepared to take on musical challenges.

I think Jeff hit the nail on the head :)
Jeff kinda did hit the nail on the head, but only with reference to my own abilities. The "cuppa tea" angle didn't really apply either. I've found that things can become my cuppa tea quite easily from a playing enjoyment POV, even if it's stuff I ordinarily wouldn't listen to.

Although I'm happy to take on musical challenges, I'm seeking them even, I have to be realistic about how far away I am from the playing goal, & the level of work it will take to get there. I suppose I'm looking for something I can transfer my existing skill set to with mainly work on interpretation.

Yeah I was kinda disappointed by that.

Andy, have you learnt nothing from Rogue's travails?
Sorry for the lack of drama. Next time, I'll make sure I post something involving gnashing of teeth, blood & snot, multiple references to questionable parentage/inbreeding, etc, etc ;)

This thread only raises questions for me.
Like what's going on with Fired Up? You guys still together? Or not enough gigs?
Fired Up are going fine. Sure, not enough gigs (but there's a solid (temporary)health related reason for that), it's more about me scratching a creative itch. I miss original material & the creative process of recording.

What kind of band, if you could pick, are you looking to join?
A two part answer. Right now, I'm gently looking for something offering original material, an edge, & a leaning towards recording. In my dreams, I'd be putting together a high energy funk act with full brass section but rock foundations, but that's not happening anytime soon. I think I'd struggle with the local musician pool on that idea :(

Was the music not really in your comfort zone? Or didn't appeal to you?
Sorry, Mr. Q. Rious here.
Pretty much, although relating to my playing repertoire, & consequently my ability to do the best possible job of serving the songs.


I'm sure you were more than capable of the job but if the feels not right for you, no matter the instrument you play, it's just not going to be it's best.
In a nutshell Mary, yes!
 
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