Knowing yourself - sometimes it's -------------

keep it simple

Platinum Member
That hurts, because it's true.....
Corrected for you - bless ;)

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Is it because it would have taken you outside your comfort zone? Surely thats a good thing?
Yes, but much deeper than that. Outside of your / my "comfort zone" is often used as a musically polite way of saying you / someone is crap at something. I'm crap at some of the technique / style I believe is necessary for this band. Sure, I could wing it & get away with it, but if I want to do something, I need to be satisfied I'm performing to a fairly high (comparatively) standard. To get to that point with the range of styles necessary for this band, would require years of work, & I don't have the time or dedication for that.

Frankly, I can't believe you have the time to even consider a 3rd band.
I don't really TBH Larry, but I have a habit of creating time. Not sure where I steal it from, but I seem to get away with it. I was in the workshop until gone midnight last night, & I suspect something similar today. I find time to post here whilst waiting for shellac coats to dry & gaps in other activities that require curing / settling times.

"thank you for making the long trip over "

A bit of a drive eh mate? Would factor in for me too.
Drive wasn't too bad - around 40 miles / 50 minutes. For the right band, that's a non issue, & less than our guitarist in Fired Up currently travels for weekly rehearsals. Especially where I live, if you want access to good players / bands, then be prepared to travel.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
Corrected for you - bless ;)

Yes, but much deeper than that. Outside of your / my "comfort zone" is often used as a musically polite way of saying you / someone is crap at something. I'm crap at some of the technique / style I believe is necessary for this band. Sure, I could wing it & get away with it, but if I want to do something, I need to be satisfied I'm performing to a fairly high (comparatively) standard. To get to that point with the range of styles necessary for this band, would require years of work, & I don't have the time or dedication for that.

I don't really TBH Larry, but I have a habit of creating time. Not sure where I steal it from, but I seem to get away with it. I was in the workshop until gone midnight last night, & I suspect something similar today. I find time to post here whilst waiting for shellac coats to dry & gaps in other activities that require curing / settling times.

Drive wasn't too bad - around 40 miles / 50 minutes. For the right band, that's a non issue, & less than our guitarist in Fired Up currently travels for weekly rehearsals. Especially where I live, if you want access to good players / bands, then be prepared to travel.
Not at all mate, I was not taking a pop at you. By comfort zone I mean just that, something you hardly even need to think about. When we first start playing our comfort zone is very small indeed, as we play and practice it expands, when we step up and play live it is scary but evenyualy our comfort zone expands to include playing in front of an audience.

Surely this would have just been another step along that road. You said yourself you enjoyed it, and the band liked you.

I recently helped form a Jazz Funk band with some great musicians, I have never played the genre in my life. I am working hard but loving the challenge, the other guys also said they are having to raise there game as we are pushing each other and keeping up with a great vocalist. At 63 its a new lease of life to be living on my musical edge again.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
Not at all mate, I was not taking a pop at you. By comfort zone I mean just that, something you hardly even need to think about. When we first start playing our comfort zone is very small indeed, as we play and practice it expands, when we step up and play live it is scary but evenyualy our comfort zone expands to include playing in front of an audience.

Surely this would have just been another step along that road. You said yourself you enjoyed it, and the band liked you.

I recently helped form a Jazz Funk band with some great musicians, I have never played the genre in my life. I am working hard but loving the challenge, the other guys also said they are having to raise there game as we are pushing each other and keeping up with a great vocalist. At 63 its a new lease of life to be living on my musical edge again.
Thanks Mike. I didn't take that as having a pop at me in the least :)

I agree with everything you're saying, but the sheer amount of work I would need to put in is unrealistic in my situation. I'm already recently playing for an act that's pushing me into playing areas I'm not comfortable with, but it's less of a leap compared to this band's needs (or at least, my perception of their needs). Additionally, I'm in a long standing rock covers band, & that's the act that doesn't push me too much musically.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
At the end of the day, it's your call, it's your feelings and if you didn't feel right for the job, whatever the reasons, we have to respect your decision...

... but as a matter of a discussion topic, I'll add a few comments on this complicated and ambiguous situation :)

I went to an audition last night...
Did you apply for the audition or did they call you?

Do you know if they auditioned other drummers?

It does make a difference...

While Karen admit herself "I didn't necessarily see us as a fit when I saw your links", if they called YOU, it means that they had/see something in their minds that you could fit the drummer's spot, which suggest that maybe they wanted the band to take a new road, often bands/artists have hired an out of character player to bring something new, fresh and different to their music.

If you called them to have an audition, then, yes, all your concerns and reservations makes perfect sense, only you can decide if you can fit or not fit, even if they liked your playing, you made the move towards them, they didn't, even if you put an idea/path in their heads, it remains your call.

I feel I can speak for the rest of the band when I say we also enjoyed meeting you very much AND having your fantastic drumming even if only for one night, so it's a bit of a disappointment...

Warm wishes
Karen
This to me indicate that they seen that your drumming would fit their perspective/structure for the future.

Referring to my audition with CP, they call me... which implied that they wanted something different than the "normal" recipe for such a band, once I was part of the band, they made me listen to some recordings featuring their previous (1st) drummer, oh my... it was like day and night, water and wine, this guy was a "proper" jazz drummer, but I guess I fitted for the new path they wanted to take, and to be honest, I didn't have to make such an effort to change my style of drumming, most of the changes I had to make were more orientated within dynamics in my playing.

Even worse, I brought a Tour series kit (22", 16", 12", 14" x 7"). Not exactly designed for the gig!
When I auditioned for CP I had a double bass drums set up consisting of 2 24", 13", 14" in power size, 18", 14"x8" and a side 14"x5"... a long way from the previous drummer's 4 piece set up in standard jazz size, lol

Same with my cymbals set up, 18" and 19" rock crashes, 22" Earth ride, not what you call subtle :)

Personal and professional integrity are so crucial, in every aspect of life.
Indeed Jon, it has actually open doors for me in my professional life.

Now if someone call you Jon for an audition and they offer you the drummer seat, in my book your integrity is intact, they chose and wanted you, your integrity could have been what got you the gig :)

I think if you'd been at the audition with me, you'd probably come to the same conclusion as I did.
Perhaps... difficult to say without hearing and seeing the audition.


...but it's less of a leap compared to this band's needs (or at least, my perception of their needs).
Yes, your perception... not necessarily theirs...

In one of CP's song, the original arrangement was played with brushes, very jazz like... and it ended up with a strong groove with a fat backbeat when I played it, you would barely be able to say it was the same song.

Also when I joined CP, everything was much easier when we wrote new material together, in the end we only played 2 or 3 tracks live which were written before my time in the band, I believe that the chemistry of the players in a band affect the end result, it's not better or worse, it's just a chapter in a band's life, you change that chemistry, you change the end result.

I still believe that you would have fitted Karen's band and be part of that chapter of this band, bringing something different in the meantime.

Sorry for the long post, but the point is: Being an out of character as a player doesn't necessarily mean a player could not fit a band, or indeed, need to change his natural style.
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
Now that I'm middle-aged, I'm finding that opportunities to do original stuff are becoming less and less because most of the bands are younger people who don't want players over 30 y.o.

I'm in a covers band and originals band and I'll tell you what, the originals band is far more gratifying to me musically. I've played those cover songs a thousand times and it just becomes dull after awhile. Sometimes I feel like I want to quit because of the the fact that I'm so sick of those songs. We just got our Hammond player back last Thurs. in the originals band and the vibe was just amazing. I had just watched the James Brown movie before I went to practice, so I came with a Clyde frame of mind. It got funky. I'll take that musical journey any day over a boring gig at a shithole bar playing cover songs. I appreciate playing gigs, but it's mostly drumming for them, not me.


My point is, at this age, covers bands are a dime a dozen, but opportunities to play originals is few and far between. I wouldn't join just any band, but I would stretch my drumming prowess to fit a project that may not be my preferred style just to play originals because covers bands just don't really do it for me.
 
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larryace

"Uncle Larry"
At the end of the day, it's your call, it's your feelings and if you didn't feel right for the job, whatever the reasons, we have to respect your decision...

... but as a matter of a discussion topic, I'll add a few comments on this complicated and ambiguous situation :)



Did you apply for the audition or did they call you?

Do you know if they auditioned other drummers?

It does make a difference...

While Karen admit herself "I didn't necessarily see us as a fit when I saw your links", if they called YOU, it means that they had/see something in their minds that you could fit the drummer's spot, which suggest that maybe they wanted the band to take a new road, often bands/artists have hired an out of character player to bring something new, fresh and different to their music.

If you called them to have an audition, then, yes, all your concerns and reservations makes perfect sense, only you can decide if you can fit or not fit, even if they liked your playing, you made the move towards them, they didn't, even if you put an idea/path in their heads, it remains your call.



This to me indicate that they seen that your drumming would fit their perspective/structure for the future.

Referring to my audition with CP, they call me... which implied that they wanted something different than the "normal" recipe for such a band, once I was part of the band, they made me listen to some recordings featuring their previous (1st) drummer, oh my... it was like day and night, water and wine, this guy was a "proper" jazz drummer, but I guess I fitted for the new path they wanted to take, and to be honest, I didn't have to make such an effort to change my style of drumming, most of the changes I had to make were more orientated within dynamics in my playing.



When I auditioned for CP I had a double bass drums set up consisting of 2 24", 13", 14" in power size, 18", 14"x8" and a side 14"x5"... a long way from the previous drummer's 4 piece set up in standard jazz size, lol

Same with my cymbals set up, 18" and 19" rock crashes, 22" Earth ride, not what you call subtle :)



Indeed Jon, it has actually open doors for me in my professional life.

Now if someone call you Jon for an audition and they offer you the drummer seat, in my book your integrity is intact, they chose and wanted you, your integrity could have been what got you the gig :)



Perhaps... difficult to say without hearing and seeing the audition.




Yes, your perception... not necessarily theirs...

In one of CP's song, the original arrangement was played with brushes, very jazz like... and it ended up with a strong groove with a fat backbeat when I played it, you would barely be able to say it was the same song.

Also when I joined CP, everything was much easier when we wrote new material together, in the end we only played 2 or 3 tracks live which were written before my time in the band, I believe that the chemistry of the players in a band affect the end result, it's not better or worse, it's just a chapter in a band's life, you change that chemistry, you change the end result.

I still believe that you would have fitted Karen's band and be part of that chapter of this band, bringing something different in the meantime.

Sorry for the long post, but the point is: Being an out of character as a player doesn't necessarily mean a player could not fit a band, or indeed, need to change his natural style.
I thought all of this too. But at the end of the day Andy decided it wasn't for him, and he knows himself best. So I support him.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
But at the end of the day Andy decided it wasn't for him, and he knows himself best. So I support him.
That's what I said on the first line in my post, so yes, I support and respect his decision... despite the fact I know Andy could do it... by being Andy :)
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Oh yea, no question he could have done it. He doesn't know how to fail. Well that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting anyway. That's why I went through that whole process just like you.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
My point is, at this age, covers bands are a dime a dozen, but opportunities to play originals is few and far between. I wouldn't join just any band, but I would stretch my drumming prowess to fit a project that may not be my preferred style just to play originals because covers bands just don't really do it for me.
I'm with you on that message. I'm older than you, & have to fight even harder against age related apathy re original material. It's a young persons game mostly, & I'm not :(

He doesn't know how to fail.
Unfortunately Larry, I'm well acquainted with failure, but I have a rubber constitution plus a high degree of stupidity, hence I still try stuff :)


Guys, the decision was a simple effort vs. reward calculation. This band would require (according to my thinking) a fairly wide range of latin grooves, a broad jazz comping ability, & mastery of low dynamic intensity. I'm ok (ish) on the last point, but on the first two, I'm faking it big time. With the "spare" time I have available, it would take me at least a year to get good enough to satisfy myself. If the band was something out of this world, then a different decision, but they were just very good, & that wasn't enough to tip the balance. Ultimately, I wasn't prepared to enter into something that would frustrate me, & possibly equate to me letting them down. I don't do letting people down at all well!
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Unfortunately Larry, I'm well acquainted with failure, but I have a rubber constitution plus a high degree of stupidity, hence I still try stuff :)

LOLOLOLOL! If your Pop wore a rubber, you'd have found a way through lol

I'm ok (ish) on the last point, but on the first two, I'm faking it big time.
Oh man that's how I learn, I fake it. I'm fairly undisciplined. I never listened to Reggae. I don't do the one drop. Not really sure what it is TBH. But we do about 6 reggae tunes. I accent beat 3 a lot, it's my downbeat/rimclick/pssht unison thing that makes it feel like reggae to me. I have no idea if that's even in the vocabulary, I just feel it like that.

I've gotten a couple unexpected compliments from other musicians how much they like my reggae beats. I'm like OooooKayyy...I have no clue what I'm doing. So OK I try and make it feel like reggae without it being actual reggae. I'm totally faking it, but it doesn't seem to matter. We play the old standard "Fly Me To The Moon". I never played anything like that before. I just play off what the others are doing, it doesn't matter that I don't know the style. I can hear what it needs without knowing the style.

Faking it is great fun. Like I'm fooling them lol.
 

mikel

Platinum Member
I realise you are a very busy guy and I have no right to try and influence you to take on something else but:

You turned up for an audition with another band, when you say you dont have time?

Perhaps they said they loved the way you played cos they could see your influence on the music and liked the idea of it being taken somewhere slightly different.

A band is the sum of its parts, what is wrong with you bringing your thing to the party. The band certainly liked it. You bend slightly to incorporate them and they do the same, the result could be very special, who knows unless you try?
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
I realise you are a very busy guy and I have no right to try and influence you to take on something else but:

You turned up for an audition with another band, when you say you dont have time?

Perhaps they said they loved the way you played cos they could see your influence on the music and liked the idea of it being taken somewhere slightly different.

A band is the sum of its parts, what is wrong with you bringing your thing to the party. The band certainly liked it. You bend slightly to incorporate them and they do the same, the result could be very special, who knows unless you try?
Mike, I can make time for something I believe can be achieved in months rather than years, but not something that requires a huge amount of time improving my own basic skills. They liked the way I played on the night, & in the context of an audition playing on the fly / jamming, but when they talked about the feel they were shooting for, it further reinforced the need for me to acquire skills in areas where I'm very weak - hence the work element.

Faking it is great fun. Like I'm fooling them lol.
I can live with that in a cover band Larry, & I agree, it's challenging & fun. Faking it in a band that wants to record original material however = different story :(
 

mikel

Platinum Member
Mike, I can make time for something I believe can be achieved in months rather than years, but not something that requires a huge amount of time improving my own basic skills. They liked the way I played on the night, & in the context of an audition playing on the fly / jamming, but when they talked about the feel they were shooting for, it further reinforced the need for me to acquire skills in areas where I'm very weak - hence the work element.

I can live with that in a cover band Larry, & I agree, it's challenging & fun. Faking it in a band that wants to record original material however = different story :(
As you can see from most of the posts, Andy, most on here believe you sell yourself short. Anyway, I am on your side mate, whatever you decide to do is good.

Cheers.
 

Aeolian

Platinum Member
I think there's a difference between being able to get though the gig, and feeling like you can contribute something to the music. Even if it's not in your regular wheelhouse you might have something to say. But if it just feels like you'd be forcing it, then the right decision would be to step aside.

Maybe at some point, you'll get into that kind of music, develop an affinity for the vocabulary, or hear in your head something that you think would bring some new spice to the proceedings.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
I think there's a difference between being able to get though the gig, and feeling like you can contribute something to the music. Even if it's not in your regular wheelhouse you might have something to say. But if it just feels like you'd be forcing it, then the right decision would be to step aside.
Hit - nail - head :)
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
Andy

You're a grown up.

One day, I'll be there.

Davo
You obviously don't know me that well Dave --- & here was me thinking we were close ;) ;) ;)

Update - unexpected occurrence this evening. The band called me to ask permission to use a recording of the audition as example tracks in their drummer advert. How weird is that!
 
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