Jazz vs Metal. Polar Opposites or Unknown Friends?

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Well, similar in approach or nothing alike? Are they Communism vs Fascist (Ford vs Chevy, black vs white, up vs down) or distant cousins that like to hang out?

Both are hard to understand for the untrained. Both are a bit extreme compared to "normal" music. Both take a lifetime to master. And both have probably the most unforgiving fanbase.

So whadda think, are they more similar than we think or opposites of the musical spectrum?
 

bud7h4

Silver Member
Much like your "Communism vs Fascist" comparison, jazz and metal have much in common. Today more than ever.

It really only goes one way though, meaning there's increasing jazz influence in metal but not a whole lot of metal in jazz lol.

Both are hard to understand for the untrained. Both are a bit extreme compared to "normal" music. Both take a lifetime to master. And both have probably the most unforgiving fanbase.
That's pretty accurate! Although there's probably a lot more mediocre (or just plain bad) metal than there is jazz.

Also . . . . .

 
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MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Much like your "Communism vs Fascist" comparison, jazz and metal have much in common. Today more than ever.

It really only goes one way though, meaning there's increasing jazz influence in metal but not a whole lot of metal in jazz lol.



That's pretty accurate! Although there's probably a lot more mediocre (or just plain bad) metal than there is jazz.

Also . . . . .

That video was incredibly entertaining!

I imagine the influence is due to age, in more ways than one. Metal is new, jazz not so much. Metal guys are more likely younger than the jazz cats. Jazz has historical value, metal scares people.

I agree about there being lots of mediocre (or bad) metal. I don't really understand jazz, so I can't say. I would like to get it, but I just don't. I try, but it escapes me.

I've often wondered if maybe metal is the new jazz, but I don't want to touch that.

The thing that amazes me is the amount of skill needed to execute either.

I wonder what Buddy would think about the metal drummers of today. He didn't really think much about the rock drummers of his time.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Lots of improv in jazz. Almost none at all in metal.
This is very true. There is some depending on the players, but it is usually very discrete. Might be fills, stops, whatever, but not as prominent as jazz. May be more akin to not memorizing parts as opposed to just freeforming parts. Regardless you are right, metal is pretty rigid.

As an aside, dynamics isn't really a thing in metal either. They do exist, but that seems to be genre dependant. Thrash has them, death metal not so much. (Yeah there are more genres, I don't wanna type all of them)
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
Musically jazz and metal have very little in common in my opinion and soundwise metal stopped being nice about 25-30 years ago, but thats just because i can not stand to hear music that sounds as coming out of a freezer..

If there would be a genre that should be considered the new jazz, then hip hop would be the one..
 

Griener

Member
Check out Hank Shteamer's podcast Heavy Metal BeBop:
Since Hank also plays drums, he interviewed some (but not only) drummers about their relationship to both Jazz and Heavy Metal.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
This reminds me of a band called sleepterror. They were tecmetal, with jazz breakdowns.

They share many of the same things and many opposites. I used to play lots of jazz, currently play in an extreme metal band and punk band, and am looking at getting back into jazz too for the record.

Differences.
Depending on the subgenera, I would say jazz requires more dynamics and feel in most cases. Metal is usually much louder but not always. I do think unless your playing 300bpm fast jazz, metal still requires more endurance. Between the double kick and blast beats I am dying during sets with my band. Don't get me wrong, jazz can be fast and push the limits too, but I'm saying EVERY song, arms and legs burning. I'd say that on average jazz is more difficult to play for me from an independence standpoint. Metal is also more locked to a grid and jazz is more flowing. Not a ton of quantizing and hit replacements done on modern jazz albums.

Similarity's.
Both styles are not mainstream and an acquired taste. People don't go from loving radio music to techdeath or fast jazz most of the time. Both are "musicians bands/generas" Most of the guys that dig my extreme metal band also play in bands. Musicians watching musicians. Both push the limits of the styles and instruments. Both generas require talented musicians and will push you further. Both will MAKE you better, but the skills are not necessary directly transferable to "radio rock"

That might be the biggest one. I can go balls to the wall with chops in my metal band, the drums are very up front. On a jazz gig I could also really let loose with chops. Put me in a radio rock band, or top 40 style band and I'd be fired. I'd say metal and jazz are very different, but many of the rules that apply are the same.
 

mikyok

Platinum Member
At this point I feel sorry for the talented drummers who play metal. Ability transcends genres and you can help what your mind tells you to like.

The drummer has been edited out of metal with samples, triggers, hit replacement and time alignment. This plague is rife in metal. The players who can actually do it without cheating don't get the credit they deserve. Also there is other dynamics other than forte :).

This is why I love the new Tool album, first heavy album I've heard in a long time that you can say that's a real drummer with an amazing drum sound and theres dynamics.

They both have a lot in common for me, the extremes of each genre have disappeared so far up their own arses it makes them hard to listen to.

For me jazz has influenced many other genres, metal not so much
 

dboomer

Senior Member
By that logic, metal, hip hop, pop, county, techno and classical are all identical because of the lack of improv.
So by THAT logic, anything that uses a bass drum is identical 😎

Frankly, who gives a sh*t what you call it.
 

cbphoto

Gold Member
I think the new jazz is EDM when performed well in a live setting. The best producers do manipulate the arrangements of their music, manipulate effects during performances and as an added bonus, shine cool lights everywhere.

As an added bonus, the women are having a good time. At least, it looks like they enjoy it.

 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
m.youtube.com/watch?v=q_gsQk7Wo08

John Zorn


But for real, I would love to hear a music theory breakdown of some metal.
 

PorkPieGuy

Platinum Member
I don't consider any sorts of music polar opposites in terms of genres. I don't know if that's what the OP is going for, but I can almost always find something in common in the music that I'm exposed to.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I don't consider any sorts of music polar opposites in terms of genres. I don't know if that's what the OP is going for, but I can almost always find something in common in the music that I'm exposed to.
I was thinking in terms of the extra mile the drummers in these genres have to go to be at the top of their game, and the general unpopularity of both genres for the average listener. It's kinda musician based fun as beyondbetrayal eluded to earlier. And people strive to get there.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
There aren't any Metal Jam bands? I think all drumming is similar. I note Nate Smith applies "jazz moves" to his funky playing with Fearless Flyers, but you see rock drumming in popular country music, etc. I remember watching Neil Peart play with Buddy Rich Band he did some of his signature rock moves. The music maybe different but you still drum pretty much the same-just differences in how much and what you apply, and tempos. I always thought it interesting all the jazz drummers with double bass kits-when "generally" the bass drum isn't dominant. I really like the "energy" in metal music but don't really follow it. I like Primus which is funky metal I guess. Is Acid Jazz in the metal realm-it all gets confusing to me.
 
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