It's the little things

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
Thanks Larry. It's partly wood species, but mostly the development we've been doing on segmented shells. Over the last year or so, we've managed to develop our thin segmented shells such that they out perform steam bent single ply in every key area. We're uniquely positioned to do that, because we're just about the only drum company that can / does craft all 4 solid shell forms in house. Because we can craft all forms, we have no bias to overcome. In fact, if we did had an inherent negative bias, it would be towards thin segmented, because it's by far the most expensive of the solid options to craft well.

We've been working on another segmented form augmentation for the last year too. More about that over the next few months.
How does glue factor into this superior sound?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Thanks Larry. It's partly wood species, but mostly the development we've been doing on segmented shells. Over the last year or so, we've managed to develop our thin segmented shells such that they out perform steam bent single ply in every key area. We're uniquely positioned to do that, because we're just about the only drum company that can / does craft all 4 solid shell forms in house. Because we can craft all forms, we have no bias to overcome. In fact, if we did had an inherent negative bias, it would be towards thin segmented, because it's by far the most expensive of the solid options to craft well.

We've been working on another segmented form augmentation for the last year too. More about that over the next few months.
One bias I always had was that I thought that grain under tension, ala steambent, was for some unknown reason, a superior tone. In other words it was all in my head. The unstressed segmented shells are every bit as alive.
That said...my steambent ash bass drum....wow what a tone. It has an afterglow that is fully unique. It sounds like no other bass drum I've heard.

I have to learn to crank the TF hoops down more though. I am totally loving the padauk snare. What tone.
 

keep it simple

Platinum Member
Bravo Andy. I never thought you could top the steambent ash. I'm biased when it comes to steambent and you even overcame that, easily.
Thanks Larry. It's partly wood species, but mostly the development we've been doing on segmented shells. Over the last year or so, we've managed to develop our thin segmented shells such that they out perform steam bent single ply in every key area. We're uniquely positioned to do that, because we're just about the only drum company that can / does craft all 4 solid shell forms in house. Because we can craft all forms, we have no bias to overcome. In fact, if we did had an inherent negative bias, it would be towards thin segmented, because it's by far the most expensive of the solid options to craft well.

We've been working on another segmented form augmentation for the last year too. More about that over the next few months.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
Sometimes the thought of someone absolutely hating a drum sound I absolutely love depresses me a little. I get that people have different tastes in music, but big differences on even the sound of a drum flummox me. "Why can't we all just get along?"--Rodney King
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
This reminds me of the bright vs dark thread on the trumpet master forum. Before I committed to die cast I listened to a couple different hoops. I think basically what happens is that the heavier hoops spread the overtones more evenly across the harmonics of the drum, and all of the higher harmonics die out faster, so what you end up with is a sharp colorful attack with a nice fundamental, though some drummers who don't like this style refer to it as "Choking"... Cho King! Whereas you get a brighter more trebly perceived tone out of light flexible hoops because there are fewer overtones getting the same amount of energy. A lot of this only makes sense yards away from the drum, because the heavier hoops should project better. If I had it to do again, I'd go with a super light weight Brazillian caixa or second line marching snare.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
No worries! I have a set and I notice more top end open ring when compared to some of my other hoop options so I thought that might interest you. But hey, baby steps, right? You just came down from the die cast hoop ledge, so I don't want to push too much... ;)
Well since you put it like that....I'll just let that ferment a bit. Top end is good for dark woods.

That makes sense. I've known this for some time, but I was always puzzled by the fact that those old Gretsch drums sounded great with die cast hoops - I didn't like Gretsch with triple flanged, they sounded too outta control. But other drums with die cast hoops, sound somewhat muted.

I'm surprised you have a Guru kit with die cast hoops, that'd be the last thing I'd want on a kit like that. Good for you for making the discovery.
Well the kits all have the wood hoops, so it's just the snares. I didn't know what I was missing. But I was happy before, so this is just more creamy center goodness. Bonus!

But man, the padauk is really wowing me on the playback. It's like the ash has a hollow sound...and I mean that in a good way....it's airy...but the padauk fills in all the freqs where the hollowness is on the ash. It really shines through the mix easier by virtue of it's midrange warmth. Its warm and fuzzy. And it's all the TF hoops. Which I have to adjust to a bit. No problem. With the die casts, I really wasn't all the way taken with the drum. Now I'm tickled pink. Or at least a burnt orange :) And the drum is nice and light.

Bravo Andy. I never thought you could top the steambent ash. I'm biased when it comes to steambent and you even overcame that, easily.
 
M

Matt Bo Eder

Guest
So I'm playing along on my beastly Guru Yolanda Charles Signature 14 x 7 walnut segmented snare and I (finally) could sort of hear how the die cast batter hoop was noticeably absorbing a lot of the wild overtones I love so much. So on this hunch, I changed the top batter hoop to a 2.3 mm triple flanged hoop. And it confirmed my hunch. (I had already swapped the snare side with a triple flanged right after I got it) So now it's triple over triple. Believe it or not, I never gigged a snare with just triple flanged hoops...ever. Hard to fathom but true. I never seriously played a snare that didn't have die cast hoops. That's just wrong and corrected now.

The walnut snare now has freqs that I couldn't hear before. Higher freqs. The ones responsible for crispness. More horsepower.

Halle frickin lujah.

Not only that, but I can hear more of the thonk. The shell note is more prominent, and the note is longer.

Plus...now this may be my imagination, but I swear it's easier to do say single strokes on. I don't know why, but it feels different. Better. Easier. More natural. More effortless. If anyone can confirm this, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

So with brain racing, I thought, my new padauk snare is likely suffering from the same thing! So long story short, I put triple flanged on it and hello! So I'm like really happy and all kinds of thankful with all the high overtones I just received.

Andy has been trying to tell me this all along, bless his heart, but he couldn't budge me. I had to have die cast blah de blah de blah. But something happened and now I have metaphorically seen the light.

So I still have 2 snares left to do this to, the steambent ash snares. I wasn't sure if it would improve the ash snares because they already have a lot of crispness. I did it on my 5.75" deep snare and I'm not sure if I like it. I haven't done it to my 7" deep gig snare. I will try it tomorrow night though.

The triple flanged improved my dark woods up a lot, noticeably, but my brigher lighter woods... I'm referring to my 2 ash drums...the jury is still out on them. But I love what it did to the tone of the darker woods.

So my main takeaway is that triple flanged hoops brings out the highs in dark woods and die cast tames the bright woods down a bit. We all tend to want to move towards center. I'm very happy what the 2.3 mm triple flanged hoops did to the walnut and the padauk snares.

Thanks for listening.
That makes sense. I've known this for some time, but I was always puzzled by the fact that those old Gretsch drums sounded great with die cast hoops - I didn't like Gretsch with triple flanged, they sounded too outta control. But other drums with die cast hoops, sound somewhat muted.

I'm surprised you have a Guru kit with die cast hoops, that'd be the last thing I'd want on a kit like that. Good for you for making the discovery.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
Sorry to be that guy, but hoop clips offend me. It can't be an improvement sound-wise (a guess) and I think they would get in my way. I'm really happy with the TF.
No worries! I have a set and I notice more top end open ring when compared to some of my other hoop options so I thought that might interest you. But hey, baby steps, right? You just came down from the die cast hoop ledge, so I don't want to push too much... ;)
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
I know you don't like them much but S-Hoops really are the best of both worlds. I'd have them on all of my drums if I could afford it.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
It makes sense to me though. The die cast hoop is more rigid, so it transfers more tension to the head more evenly, so there's less cranking needed to get to a higher pitch. That's also why I think the head feels harder with die casts; there's less difference in head tension across the entire head. I've noticed the same thing on 12-lug snares that have triple flange hoops.

Since the S-Hoops don't float your boat, I've got another suggestion. Single flange hoops with hoop clips give a really warm and open tone that I think you might like. Plus, they look cool too. ;)
Cool, corroboration.

Sorry to be that guy, but hoop clips offend me. It can't be an improvement sound-wise (a guess) and I think they would get in my way. I'm really happy with the TF.

But not on my ash drums. I still prefer a DC on those. The padauk drum really surprised me. I had a rubber mask on last night so it was difficult to judge, my ears were covered. TBH, near field, I preferred my ash. (I played both drums last night)

But on the recording, the padauk easily won my heart. It was clearly a better sounding tone, which really surprises me. I have no problem sacrificing near field tone in favor of a superior sounding snare in the audience. I think the padauk might be my new gig snare. My only complaint with the TF hoops is the rim click. The sweet spot is very unforgiving. I had to keep my stick hitting at an exact certain spot for the sweetest tone. If I was a little off I heard it. DC hoops are more forgiving in that area and make a woodier sounding rim click. All in all I'm real happy with the padauk since I put the TF hoops on her. Everyone should own at least one Guru snare.

Tonight I'm using the padauk all night. I still have to wear a mask though.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
It seems to me, and this may be just my imagination, but I get the feeling that I have to crank the TF hoop tighter than a die cast to achieve the same note. Which doesn't seem to make sense, why should that matter, right? All things being equal, maybe the head is tighter compared to a DC at the same note. That's my impression. Doesn't make sense to me though.
It makes sense to me though. The die cast hoop is more rigid, so it transfers more tension to the head more evenly, so there's less cranking needed to get to a higher pitch. That's also why I think the head feels harder with die casts; there's less difference in head tension across the entire head. I've noticed the same thing on 12-lug snares that have triple flange hoops.

Since the S-Hoops don't float your boat, I've got another suggestion. Single flange hoops with hoop clips give a really warm and open tone that I think you might like. Plus, they look cool too. ;)
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Some guys claim that a drumhead feels like it has slightly more give when they put 3-F hoops on a drum. Maybe that's why you find it easier to play fast singles (?)

Why does a bass player have a signature snare drum?
It seems to me, and this may be just my imagination, but I get the feeling that I have to crank the TF hoop tighter than a die cast to achieve the same note. Which doesn't seem to make sense, why should that matter, right? All things being equal, maybe the head is tighter compared to a DC at the same note. That's my impression. Doesn't make sense to me though.

And it's not really a signature snare drum. I just got Yolanda Charles' blessing (via Andy) to name my entire walnut kit after her. I was just taking a little artistic license with the snare drum :)
 
G

Ghostnote

Guest
Some guys claim that a drumhead feels like it has slightly more give when they put 3-F hoops on a drum. Maybe that's why you find it easier to play fast singles (?)

Why does a bass player have a signature snare drum?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Larry, don't give a Black Beauty to a kid. Kids don't appreciate nice things like that. They'll just sell it for alcohol money. Now we wouldn't want that, would we? PM me for my forwarding address. Thanks, bud.
You make a good point. The drum would bring much more joy to a person who knew what they were getting. You're swaying me Paul.

Padauk is such a great sounding tonewood. Like it so much, I have a second one coming in -- same builder, same size even. Hoops, construction type (one I have is stave; incoming segmented), and lugs are different though. Congrats on the new snare Larry!
Holy crap Rich you dirty dog you. Is this number 6 Guru? You know a good thing when you hear one right? Good for you man. I gigged my padauk snare with the triple flange hoops...this is the 3rd time I'm gigging it but it's the first time I played it (or any snare for that matter) with triple flange hoops. And man does that drum record well. It records better than my ash. I'm a little astounded. I'm just coming home from this great Halloween gig and I'm sitting here eating a bowl of Frosted Mini Wheats.

Life can be good :)
 

steadypocket

Gold Member
Woah Nelly-New Padauk snare?? I remember you commenting on how you liked it in Andy's video but I didn't see a post with your new baby? Getting quite a Guru-vy collection there-I'm envious. Glad the triple flange is working out and sounds like you've had an aural epiphany
Padauk is such a great sounding tonewood. Like it so much, I have a second one coming in -- same builder, same size even. Hoops, construction type (one I have is stave; incoming segmented), and lugs are different though. Congrats on the new snare Larry!
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
Larry, don't give a Black Beauty to a kid. Kids don't appreciate nice things like that. They'll just sell it for alcohol money. Now we wouldn't want that, would we? PM me for my forwarding address. Thanks, bud.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I've never changed my hoops, and I've never even thought to.

What is the main benefit of changing the hoops? Consistent tuning?

Seems like a couple people have mentioned that it kills the snare...
I liked the rimshot, the cross stick, and I liked the way a DC hoop focused the tone.

How about a Middle School Science Teacher?? :)
Yea, no. Limited means deserving kid.

Right Person? I've always been conservative, probably more Libertarian anymore.
Reason #2 - the Smoke Family is a non-profit organization!
Reason #3 - I'm a metrologist. Nobody knows what that is. For 33 years, I've been a student in the science of measurement, working in absolute anonymity.
Reason #4 - Smoke is a cool name.
Do you need more?!? I can go on!
Well you sound like a nice person. Good try on the student thing! How about a tunebot as a consolation prize? The clippy thing broke but it works great!
 

Smoke

Silver Member
Some lucky person, likely a student, will be getting one of my LB417 Black Beautys. I can't bring myself to sell it, but I'd give it away to the right person.
Right Person? I've always been conservative, probably more Libertarian anymore.
Reason #2 - the Smoke Family is a non-profit organization!
Reason #3 - I'm a metrologist. Nobody knows what that is. For 33 years, I've been a student in the science of measurement, working in absolute anonymity.
Reason #4 - Smoke is a cool name.
Do you need more?!? I can go on!
 

tcspears

Gold Member
I've never changed my hoops, and I've never even thought to.

What is the main benefit of changing the hoops? Consistent tuning?

Seems like a couple people have mentioned that it kills the snare...
 
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