I miss Pollyanna

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
I opologised for using sensationalist language for the title in the original thread. It was a naive attempt to generate traffic in a style used to great effect by others. I expected division of opinion & lively debate. I didn't expect things to get or be taken personally.
I should have inserted the word "opinion" in the original title. I expected opinion in the forum to be divided, not the forum itself. Bad choice of words on my part that I've apologised for several times.


Average made a statement that I felt was unnecessarily pointed. I made my feelings on the matter clear, issue dealt with.
Don't see your issue with that. You made a statement that I felt was excessive, I posted to that effect, you replied, issue dealt with. The above statement was posted by way of closure.


I didn't value the automatic assumption that, because of my opinions, I'm part of some group of posters who've obviously been embroiled in some form of historical DW forum BS. Again, dealt with, but it leaves a bad taste.
This statement does not refer to you.


I'll go with accepting judgement from those who pay their hard earned cash to be entertained by "musicians", rather than being sanctimoniously pigeon holed by those who value opinions on a pseudo hierarchical basis and are "apparently" legends in their own bathtime! (Disclaimer; any similarity to situations or persons, living or otherwise, is purely coincidental).
Again, this is not referring to you.

Please don't say I post just for the sake of fighting. I hate fighting. I don't appreciate the link to the sycophant definition either. I'm aware of it's meaning. I'll go the counter route this time and assume you're not calling me a sycophant. Should I be incorrect, then please sight examples of my posts to back it up.

Sincerely, thanks for your kind words of concern regarding my parents health, KIS.
 

Average

Senior Member
Don't see your issue with that. You made a statement that I felt was excessive, I posted to that effect, you replied, issue dealt with. The above statement was posted by way of closure.
Alright matter closed.

This statement does not refer to you.




Again, this is not referring to you.
I didn't respond to either of those barbs in my post because they do not apply to me. I have no idea who you are talking about. It is kind of crazy that you are quoting and responding to your own posts. Hehehe.

Please don't say I post just for the sake of fighting. I hate fighting. I don't appreciate the link to the sycophant definition either. I'm aware of it's meaning. I'll go the counter route this time and assume you're not calling me a sycophant. Should I be incorrect, then please sight examples of my posts to back it up.
I would never call you a sycophant. My point was that you and Polly climbed up on the cross all by yourselves. I didn't put you there. When I said over and over again that I wasn't talking about you two, and you kept posting about it like I was, to me it seemed that you were fighting just to be fighting. Maybe you weren't but that was my perception. Thank you for correcting my perception.

Sincerely, thanks for your kind words of concern regarding my parents health, KIS.
I meant those words. Seriously. I hope things get better for you quickly.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Alright matter closed.



I didn't respond to either of those barbs in my post because they do not apply to me. I have no idea who you are talking about. It is kind of crazy that you are quoting and responding to your own posts. Hehehe.



I would never call you a sycophant. My point was that you and Polly climbed up on the cross all by yourselves. I didn't put you there. When I said over and over again that I wasn't talking about you two, and you kept posting about it like I was, to me it seemed that you were fighting just to be fighting. Maybe you weren't but that was my perception. Thank you for correcting my perception.



I meant those words. Seriously. I hope things get better for you quickly.

Thanks, all matters closed!
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Alright these are my last thoughts. It's long but I think needs to be said, because I have very strong feelings on this matter.

I would like to respond to this and no other statement. I think the forums too often go off into these wild directions where they were never intended, and for just a brief moment I would like to keep things narrow. So the statement I'm responding to is...

Some may feel that members who embrace the low-technique drummers with clever ideas are engaging in sour grapes and don't appreciate skill.Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

But first some background.

My family had to change their phone number three times because of anti WFD garbage that came directly from drum forums. Several of you who have seen me at NAMMs also know the story about the guy cops in Anaheim had to visit because he claimed in a pm that he wanted to meet me in front of the convention center to see exactly how fast my hands were. Then there was the really bad one in 2005 that I don't even want to go into, but Jeff Almeyda and several others here know the whole story.

Now some might want to consider physical threats, psychotic Internet stalkers, and police actions a whole lot of historical forum BS. Well to me it all seemed pretty real at the time.

For anyone who wants to make the wreckless and irresponsible statement that anti technique statements have never been made on this forum, I personally think it's time you drop your tact and become a little more aware, because it's no laughing matter. The fact of the matter is quite simply this. Not only have these statements been made, but in numerous instances they lead to a lot more than supposed misunderstandings on a drum forum.

For some of you who may be new to these battles, WFD was a speed drumming world championship that was a lightning rod of technique hater controversy on drum forums for years and years. Several forums laden with trolls thought it would be a good joke to burn participants to the ground. It started with the now defunct Evans forum, then moved to numerous larger more expansive ones. In fact numerous youtube trolls of the future cut their teeth on those forums using WFD as a kind of model, but to DW's credit not as many here. That was because this forum has always been tightly moderated and observant of troll behavior. But even tight moderation can't spot all of this, so yeah the trolls still fell through the cracks from time to time, and tried to get their 2c in here as much as possible because this forum had become a refuge of sorts for guys like me who wanted to to be in technique comps because I just decided to.

Still at any given time, several of the better known drum forum trolls were and are here in various forms, and some of the very same reasonable folks here who say there's never been a problem befriend them all the time without knowing it. Then they go to another forum and make fun of you. That's the reality.

According to some who would see it another way, I had the bad judgement to actually win one of those WFD world championships and in one instance here posted a video of a world record run in 2008. The thread was then taken over by numerous famous trolls from other forums who had read of my accomplishment on sickdrummer.com, and thought I didn't deserve the attention. They were in turn followed by employees tied to a rival well known drum comp. I knew who they were because I had dealt with most all of them at other places. In all truth I thought it got too much attention as well, but I also didn't see how I was responsible for that either.

To make a long story short, I was pummeled here for three straight days by every Internet crazy who ever had an agenda about not so much technique, but the attention technique justly or unjustly receives. That thread had 5000 views before it was mercifully deleted, and for that I thank Bernhard, Dogbreath /Thomas/ and others. But to say none of that never happened is incomprehensible. With that said, I'm sure Tom Grossett, Waterson and others would be glad to share similar accounts.

And while saying this let it be clearly misunderstood that again I am responding to the following statement.

Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

I hope that was cleared up for anyone who thinks otherwise.

Some of you also have to understand that these forums have been up long before many of you ever knew they existed. In many cases some new to this take into these cultures your own value systems from the real world, when sometimes there is nothing about some of the overall logic that even closely resembles reality.

Now with all that said would I have foregone my five years of forum experience given the chance? No not at all, because on balance I'm much better off having been a part of the DW community, fights and all. This was also IMO the best of the lot by a wide margin. To say otherwise would be wrong, because I would have to pretend that I didn't have a lot of wonderful experiences here, and yes I became not only a better known drummer through it all, but a better drummer period via all the great talks I had here. And the straight fact is these outlets are where my generation had their biggest talks and learned a number of their life lessons.

As I start to do a little better now, I run into a higher class of player who also claim that forums were the outlet for the younger guys they've known, and don't think that a whole lot of them don't read these things and at the very least aren't remarkably fascinated. Yes, they are enjoying their careers, but in doing so they're more likely to be near a laptop in their spare time not less.

But it also has to be understood that we've all had a shared history and the tech battle thing was one of them, and it's not to be discounted, because it's part of a shared culture that shouldn't also be devalued when convenient and/or misunderstood. And maybe when someone asks you nicely to let this topic go, maybe the correct response shouldn't be to discount that either.

And when people want to discuss misunderstandings and devote this kind of time to motive related to what might have happened, let's be at least equally aware that some things actually did happen and I have police reports to prove it. And yeah, I am enjoying what I'm doing, but it's hard not to take some of that seriously while it's going on.
Thanks for the heads up & the best reason yet for keeping away from forums. It's sure been a short sharp learning curve & I'm not sure this is a good place to be. Again, my naivety and misplaced faith in human nature has failed me.
 

Average

Senior Member
Alright these are my last thoughts. It's long but I think needs to be said, because I have very strong feelings on this matter.

I would like to respond to this and no other statement. I think the forums too often go off into these wild directions where they were never intended, and for just a brief moment I would like to keep things narrow. So the statement I'm responding to is...

Some may feel that members who embrace the low-technique drummers with clever ideas are engaging in sour grapes and don't appreciate skill.Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

But first some background.

My family had to change their phone number three times because of anti WFD garbage that came directly from drum forums. Several of you who have seen me at NAMMs also know the story about the guy cops in Anaheim had to visit because he claimed in a pm that he wanted to meet me in front of the convention center to see exactly how fast my hands were. Then there was the really bad one in 2005 that I don't even want to go into, but Jeff Almeyda and several others here know the whole story.

Now some might want to consider physical threats, psychotic Internet stalkers, and police actions a whole lot of historical forum BS. Well to me it all seemed pretty real at the time.

For anyone who wants to make the wreckless and irresponsible statement that anti technique statements have never been made on this forum, I personally think it's time you drop your tact and become a little more aware, because it's no laughing matter. The fact of the matter is quite simply this. Not only have these statements been made, but in numerous instances they lead to a lot more than supposed misunderstandings on a drum forum.

For some of you who may be new to these battles, WFD was a speed drumming world championship that was a lightning rod of technique hater controversy on drum forums for years and years. Several forums laden with trolls thought it would be a good joke to burn participants to the ground. It started with the now defunct Evans forum, then moved to numerous larger more expansive ones. In fact numerous youtube trolls of the future cut their teeth on those forums using WFD as a kind of model, but to DW's credit not as many here. That was because this forum has always been tightly moderated and observant of troll behavior. But even tight moderation can't spot all of this, so yeah the trolls still fell through the cracks from time to time, and tried to get their 2c in here as much as possible because this forum had become a refuge of sorts for guys like me who wanted to to be in technique comps because I just decided to.

Still at any given time, several of the better known drum forum trolls were and are here in various forms, and some of the very same reasonable folks here who say there's never been a problem befriend them all the time without knowing it. Then they go to another forum and make fun of you. That's the reality.

According to some who would see it another way, I had the bad judgement to actually win one of those WFD world championships and in one instance here posted a video of a world record run in 2008. The thread was then taken over by numerous famous trolls from other forums who had read of my accomplishment on sickdrummer.com, and thought I didn't deserve the attention. They were in turn followed by employees tied to a rival well known drum comp. I knew who they were because I had dealt with most all of them at other places. In all truth I thought it got too much attention as well, but I also didn't see how I was responsible for that either.

To make a long story short, I was pummeled here for three straight days by every Internet crazy who ever had an agenda about not so much technique, but the attention technique justly or unjustly receives. That thread had 5000 views before it was mercifully deleted, and for that I thank Bernhard, Dogbreath /Thomas/ and others. But to say none of that never happened is incomprehensible. With that said, I'm sure Tom Grossett, Waterson and others would be glad to share similar accounts.

And while saying this let it be clearly misunderstood that again I am responding to the following statement.

Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

I hope that was cleared up for anyone who thinks otherwise.

Some of you also have to understand that these forums have been up long before many of you ever knew they existed. In many cases some new to this take into these cultures your own value systems from the real world, when sometimes there is nothing about some of the overall logic that even closely resembles reality.

Now with all that said would I have foregone my five years of forum experience given the chance? No not at all, because on balance I'm much better off having been a part of the DW community, fights and all. This was also IMO the best of the lot by a wide margin. To say otherwise would be wrong, because I would have to pretend that I didn't have a lot of wonderful experiences here, and yes I became not only a better known drummer through it all, but a better drummer period via all the great talks I had here. And the straight fact is these outlets are where my generation had their biggest talks and learned a number of their life lessons.

As I start to do a little better now, I run into a higher class of player who also claim that forums were the outlet for the younger guys they've known, and don't think that a whole lot of them don't read these things and at the very least aren't remarkably fascinated. Yes, they are enjoying their careers, but in doing so they're more likely to be near a laptop in their spare time not less.

But it also has to be understood that we've all had a shared history and the tech battle thing was one of them, and it's not to be discounted, because it's part of a shared culture that shouldn't also be devalued when convenient and/or misunderstood. And maybe when someone asks you nicely to let this topic go, maybe the correct response shouldn't be to discount that either.

And when people want to discuss misunderstandings and devote this kind of time to motive related to what might have happened, let's be at least equally aware that some things actually did happen and I have police reports to prove it. And yeah, I am enjoying what I'm doing, but it's hard not to take some of that seriously while it's going on.
This is the best possible argument for staying as anonymous as possible on the internet. There are people on here who know who I am and/or know me personally (Matt included) but I would rather not expose myself and my 2 daughters to some of the sickos running around. If that means that my credibility suffers when posting then so be it. It doesn't matter to me, personally, who someone is unless they are trying to use their own 'credibility' to add weight to their opinions. If it is really important to someone to know who I am then they can PM me.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
True Ken. When people post opinions they are always right - to them. Some may be more right than others and I usually try to look at what people mean more than being literal about their posts. But I saw red when I read the comment about people who "play like crap" being jealous and deluded. Especially since it came directly after my post about not being as excited about chop monsters as in my youth. Hey, all that testosterone-soaked flash on display is pretty damn cool when you're young! Guess I'm a bit over it now. Probably should apologise for being old and Too Pooped To Pop :)

Whatever, no one has the right to say someone plays like crap IMO; musicians are just in different stages of development. The only person allowed to say someone's crap is the person him/herself, and even then it's rarely helpful.

At one point in the $ beat thread I listed specific examples of moneybeats that impressed me in the musical context or their execution. In hindsight it would have been more useful to raise one good example and analyse why it worked so well. Like this ...



Re: Distracted, , this version (starting at 5:30) is Mark Simmons rather than Steve G but it's still the $ beat. A slow tempo money beat leaves a ton of space between major accents, creating a floating feeling between them. The minor hihat accent on 2 gives it swing and propulsion. You have to get the timing so spot on with those spacious beats to get them grooving.

Thanks again to everyone who was supportive - a bit embarrassed and amazed. Cool how these kinships develop over thousands of miles :)
That's why everybody love you, Polly. :)
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I still can't think of a single anti-technque comment made on this forum. Just because people said things before I arrived here doesn't degrade this statement. So I repeat - no one HERE is anti-technique to the best of my knowledge. If I'm not aware of them that doesn't mean they don't exist of course, but I haven't been seeing them here in the half-year that I've been a regular poster. Besides, everyone needs to have some technique to play.

However, I've seen plenty of people giving simple drummers a HUGE thumbs down. I don't think that the technicians have much to worry about with the current crew of regulars. If anything, those raising the good points of simple drummers are just creating some balance. Yin and Yang.

To me, the Yang of drumming is power, speed and independence. The Yin of drumming is subtlety and sensitivity. (I'd see groove as gender-neutral). I like to see balanced views and I have ZERO interest in any supposed drumming hierarchy. I play purely for the love of it these days with no major aspirations and my place in any real or imagined drumming heirarchy is entirely irrelevant to me. I just enjoy playing in my band with people I like and respect a great deal.

Art can be like this:



and it can be like this:



or this:



Some art takes more technique than others but I don't care. Surely it's a matter of what hits the spot for the individual? Why not enjoy it all for what it is without ranking and competitiveness? If you feel competitiveness is important because you're in a race to establish your place in that feral cesspool otherwise known as the music industry, fine, go for gold if you can swing it. Whatever floats your boat. But many people don't see art in terms of hierarchies, which is why most of the most popular music is relatively simple.

I really don't care one bit if someone loves great chops and dislikes simplicity but am happy to put my two cent's worth in, if only to provide some balance. If the "drum philsophy" threads seem overbalanced by those who appreciate simplicity then:

1) there are heaps of threads about how to achieve so-and-so BPM, or improving independence or about exotic paradiddle variations and

2) there's nothing to stop people from making content-rich and respectful opposing views. The smart approach isn't to go nyah nyah but raise a specific example of simple drumming where you feel the drummer missed opportunities to turn a decent song into something special. What part/s in the song were those opportunities and what phrase would have lifted it to a higher level? THAT would be useful.

Even though as a rule I enjoy understated musicianship more than showing off I am not sure that any budding superstars have to worry about me stalking, pillaging or burning. I am not entirely web-anonymous too and also have been stalked via the web - once by a nutter who didn't like my opinions and once by a nutter who seemed to like me too much. Not fun but they go away after a while.

I've been stalked by a nutter in meatspace who could could see through my window at home. I've also put up with a peeping tom and a phone heavy breather (that was hilarious - happy to share that tale sometime). Several times I've been followed on the street by guys (alone and in groups) looking for sex. Stuff happens. If one is worried about being stalked, just be glad you're not a woman.

Defensiveness is still no excuse for rudeness, and unpleasantness is a sure way of increasing the chances of things going awry. The safest practice on the web is to be respectful, friendly and positive. Happily, it's also more enjoyable. The thing I have to learn is to ignore the nasty stuff, and it appears I'm not the only one.

We had a comment complaining that people who "can't play for crap" are trying to raise themselves on some drumming hierarchy to the same level of more seasoned players. Yet it appears that comment does not refer to any actual people who commented on the Money Beat thread. I appear not to have realised that this was a reference to theoretical people, not real ones :p If stuff happens on other forums, then let it stay on other forums. This, for the overwhelmingly large part, is a NICE forum because it is strongly moderated. That, along with being a music obsessive, is why I post here.

I hope that clarifies things somewhat.

PS. Thanks Ken, but not everyone :)
 
Last edited:

zambizzi

Platinum Member
WTF happened here? How do discussions on drum forums get so out of control? I just glanced through this thread...crazy! You humans are strange creatures, indeed.
 

brittc89

Pioneer Member
This thread is whack. SHUT IT DOWN! Close it up, whatever. Im so tired of looking on here and seeing garbage like this.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
I still can't think of a single anti-technque comment made on this forum.
I'll second that. I've seen too many people here singing the praises of highly technical drummers to believe that there's an "anti-technique" contingent here. Most of the threads I see here are addressing topics of fairly advanced drumming techniques, a lot of which I've never heard of, or discussions of drum teachers, instruction books and DVDs, rudiments, types of grip, you name it.

I'd say that the members of this forum appear to be a pretty technical oriented group.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Glad to have you back Polly!
I agree with you 100%
Weather it is Painting, Sculpture, Music, Dance, and of course Drumming, All art is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.
Art is all about expression, Both simple and complex!
 

Fishnmusicn

Senior Member
Glad to have you back Polly!
I agree with you 100%
Weather it is Painting, Sculpture, Music, Dance, and of course Drumming, All art is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.
Art is all about expression, Both simple and complex!
Absolutely - acceptance and understanding.

Throw the pigeonholing and judgemental stuff out the window! If you criticize, do it with an air of respect and try to help someone further their own journey of self expression.

I think Polly exemplifies this reasonable goal. Good to see your posts again, PA...

Fishnmusicn
 

John Galt

Member
"I've been stalked by a nutter in meatspace who could could see through my window at home. I've also put up with a peeping tom and a phone heavy breather (that was hilarious - happy to share that tale sometime). Several times I've been followed on the street by guys (alone and in groups) looking for sex. Stuff happens. If one is worried about being stalked, just be glad you're not a woman."



Polly, I've apologised so many times about that.
I always carry a ladder with me to resuce cats, children or anything caught in trees or up three storey buildings. And I was running hard when I called you to warn you about those group of perverts seeking hot women for sex.
OK.......so I may have known some of them and in fact was at the front of the queue, but that was just a coincidence.
BTW.......this is all tongue in cheek just in case someone is thinking I'm talking about an individual, group, collection, or any inanimate object living or dead, in this form, a previous form, or a future form, animal, vegetable or mineral.

Good to see you back Pollyana.
(And here at this point, and with reference to the following comment alone, I am referring specifically to you currently reading this far, )
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
 
N

nhzoso

Guest
If this thread and the one it is referring to (A prequel if you will) were movies I would have to give them 2 thumbs and 2 big toes down! Atleast I did not have to pay $8 for my popcorn though.

But if your around here long enough you will notice 2-3 of these-- he said/ she said, no I meant/ yeah but it came across as sarcastic, then the conclusive I am leaving/please come back/ I am sorry/ it's all good threads a year, the participants change but the story line is exactly the same. I may even have been a participant in 1 or 2 but I am learning : )
 
Top