Hard time playing fast 8's

moxman

Silver Member
I'm also playing Rock And Roll (Led Zep), trying to be faithful to the Bonham groove where he's riding 8th notes on the snare the whole time, accenting 2 and 4. It's not crazy fast, but it feels really strange at first playing the 8ths on the snare drum, so I've got some work to do on it.
I play that one as well and find it sounds and grooves better if you play something similar to the 'killer shuffle' pattern where you drop the snare out on 1 and 3 and ghost the snare on either side of the the 2 and 4. Still sounds the same and is easier to play.. except it's not a shuffle of course, it's straight. Not sure if he really plays continuos 8ths on that.. I've heard that from another drummer but can't really tell the difference..

Also key is playing 1/4s on loose hats so they sound like they are busier than they are.

Love his 'out of nowhere' cymbal crashes.. whenever I smack those people turn and smile!
 

drum4fun27302

Gold Member
Try to put the hat accents on the 2 and 4 (with the snare) instead of the 1 and 3. It is much easier to bring both hands down at the same time instead of having the accented hat on the 1 and 3 and the accented snare with the other hand on 2 and 4. Just not enough room/time to swing that snare stick up and down because of your non-accented hat :)

He explains it nicely :)

http://youtu.be/w8h3eyTV5kg
 
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JustJames

Platinum Member
I can't speak for players with hand parity but I find single-handed eighths and double handed have a different feel. Also, when playing the hats with two hands you need more limb independence when playing syncopated BD notes. The more options you have of sounding good, the better. I could do with more.
The only thing about this is if you're hitting a brick wall at a certain tempo that other's can break through it must mean there is either a technique issue or an endurance issue, either of which can be fixed, meaning there is still room for improvement. I would say don't just take the easy way out.
You are of course, both right.

But if a song needs to be played now and playing two handed will get the song played, then by all means play single handed.

And if the desire to master the technique/improve endurance leads to practicing towards playing single handed, then that's even better.

Geez, agreeing with people with differing viewpoints...what kind of weird forum is this place anyway?
 
Has anybody ever heard an audience member complaining that the drummer was playing 2 handed on the hats?

Yep. Thought so.

This isn't an athletic endeavour. Sounding good is the only thing that matters.
The only thing about this is if you're hitting a brick wall at a certain tempo that other's can break through it must mean there is either a technique issue or an endurance issue, either of which can be fixed, meaning there is still room for improvement. I would say don't just take the easy way out.
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
Has anybody ever heard an audience member complaining that the drummer was playing 2 handed on the hats?

Yep. Thought so.

This isn't an athletic endeavour. Sounding good is the only thing that matters.
I can't speak for players with hand parity but I find single-handed eighths and double handed have a different feel. Also, when playing the hats with two hands you need more limb independence when playing syncopated BD notes. The more options you have of sounding good, the better. I could do with more.
 

JustJames

Platinum Member
Has anybody ever heard an audience member complaining that the drummer was playing 2 handed on the hats?





Yep. Thought so.

This isn't an athletic endeavour. Sounding good is the only thing that matters.
 

moxman

Silver Member
I run into this all the time.. I have to judge - if I play 8ths at this super fast tempo, is it going to wear me out - as part of a 3 hour show.. or can I get the same sound and feel playing 2 handed and walk through it like a breeze? I usually vote for 'endurance' and being relaxed.

A few techniques I use;
- get really good at playing smooth, even 2 handed rythmns on the hats
- work on stickings that cover the rythmn without any breaks in the rythmn or flow
- try the Gadd technique of 3 lefts to cover the missing hat hit when you snap the snare with the right hand.. basically covering the hole in the pattern

Sometimes you just get a better feel using one hand superfast 8th's - in which case finger technique can really help... you lose a bit of volume but it doesn't wear you out.. you play fast all day doing that and keep the feel.

Also for one hand use the bounce/moelleri accents - can keep the stick propelling along with a minimum of effort.

.. and finally I don't know why this is, but I can play fast cut time 16ths one handed at fast tempos like a walk in the park.. but the same speed as straight 8ths just seems to take a lot more work.. maybe just my imagination or maybe the groove.. never figured it out!
 

Rochelle Rochelle

Senior Member
I'll make you feel better...140 is my limit for 8th on the hats right now. I'm working on the practice pad to build up my arm strength.
 
I understand it can be in the way and i agree 100%, larry, but it can also be constructive depending on how you look at it. If this was a song that i was playing for a band, i would so just sacrifice coolness for timing, but since this is only for fun, figured i would push myself to learn something new and get better for in the future.

Im actually glad to say that after a few days i can make it almost through the whole song without feeling a thing now.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
My pride is what keeps me from playing two handed. That's something not to be proud of.
I'm on your side and am trying to help, so remember that as you read this.

There's good pride and damaging pride. There is no way out of that if you allow your self-destructive, good for nothing, damaging pride to dominate your will. It's blocking your way forward, like in a huge way. You are knowingly creating formidable obstacles. Stop it already! Enough! What's the upside to this pride stuff again?
It's one of the 7 deadly sins, I wouldn't mess with it. Let that stuff go, and the quicker you are about it, the better. Is that an option? Because it's really going to hold you up.

Just play them two handed and stop complicating things. Chuck the damaging pride and leave it to die.
 
This is all very helpful. My first thought was that it was just going to take some met practice and a little molar. I wish i could be one of those guys who did't think about technique and just did it. Like so many people who grow up listening and playing certain kinds of music and its just programmed into them. I have a teacher who says he hates people who have natural musical ability because they have it so much easier than those like him(and me) who have to work at everything they do. Just makes me more proud when something gets accomplished. My brain is too programmed to perfecting technique and all of that and it slows me down on things like this.

My pride is what keeps me from playing two handed. That's something not to be proud of.
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
Check out Bo's model push pull technique in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SIKDJVLUXo

As a hack I always just faked it if I couldn't play the original drum pattern exactly. The big serious players have to get everything 100% but in most cover bands musicians generally prefer a drummer who can fake it with groove than ungroovy exactness.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Is there any reason why you can't play them 2 handed for now? There's no shame, 190 BPM 8th notes is fairly brisk.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
Just like everything else.. practice and pushing your self..

Set a click around your upper limit, play a rock beat for 5 minutes with 1/8 notes... when you can do that, increase the click every day until its tough at the end... not sloppy, but your having to push.

think of a running trying to run a 30 KM run... your not getting there in a day.. you start off with 1, 2, maybe 3,, keep pushing every day, slowly working your way up there.. bodybuilders don't bench 250 lbs right away.. you fight and fight for each pound... Speed in drumming is the same..

And much the same the faster you get the harder it is for each bpm.

Try and use a bit of a molar technique on the hihat... and make sure to use your fingers to assist the stroke.. if you are playing all wrist of from the elbow its going to be very tough.

accent the down beats, that will help keep time, force the molar technique and seems to work for me.
 

denisri

Silver Member
Several songs that are good to work on regarding right hand 8's and 16th notes.
Doors....LA Woman....8's........If I recall correctly around 170BPM
Stones....Hear You Kocking....16's. 78 BPM
Bill Withford(Sp ?). Use Me....16's. 78BPM

These are my upper limits 8th and 16th note for full songs or say 3 to 5 min's of continuous playing.
Would like to see suggested drills to increase speed for single RH HH beats.

Denis
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
For some reason I'm unable to edit posts, but to clarify above, the Bee Gees tune is 1/4 note @ 95–97 bpm, but the right hand is playing 16th notes.
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
Fast one-handed hi-hat patterns can be surprisingly hard to play with good feeling. I've had to play certain tunes lately where the tempos required me to do some woodshedding before I could get the feel right. That 190–200 bpm range is right in a sort of awkward place for me. Examples:

There's a live version of the Bee Gees playing Nights On Broadway that's really moving along. The tempo runs in the 190–195 range for most of the tune and the downbeats are definitely accented a bit. I play with a guy who wants to play the song at that tempo and it took serious practice before I could really nail it.

I'm also playing Rock And Roll (Led Zep), trying to be faithful to the Bonham groove where he's riding 8th notes on the snare the whole time, accenting 2 and 4. It's not crazy fast, but it feels really strange at first playing the 8ths on the snare drum, so I've got some work to do on it.

The ultimate back-breaker for me was recently working out of Igoe's Groove Essentials book and coming across Groove #34 (Medium Samba). I'm not sure anyone would actually expect the drummer to play straight 8th notes on a groove like that, but Tommy's exercise is really pushing me. Which is fun.

All this stuff takes practice and gradually working up to speed. A lot of it is coordination; not just playing it, but making it line up with the rest of your groove, getting the unisons down, etc.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
I use a Pro Logix Blue Lighting practice pad, it really really makes you work for it.. Couch cushion is good too.

I find the pillow is too dead. if you rely on that bounce when you start to roll your floor tom you'll be in in for a supprise
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
There's a large difference between a tight bouncy head, and hats that soak up the stick's energy. That's why technique is important. You must control the stick. There won't always be a bouncy surface to assist you.

Practice open rolls on a pillow. Once you've got that, you'll be ready to go back to the hat, and a lot more.

Bermuda
 
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